The Aaron Judge Effect

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by BobC

Some of that supposed lack of interest may be because he technically has not broken, or even really tied, any records, yet. PEDs or not, the official MLB record for homers in a season belongs to Bonds at 73. Not everyone is as big of a baseball purist when it comes to issues and questions with PEDs, but to the average person Judge isn't even within single digits of the record yet. Also, football is a lot more popular than it was in the past, and many have said/felt it has actually supplanted baseball as America's pastime.

Now, if Judge were sitting on 70 homers at this point, i think it more likely the interest and hysteria you were expecting would be in place.

Completely agree on this.

I can see the excitement for Yanks fans, but honestly other than a passing interest during the day's sports highlights this has little impact on my day to day. I also think the comparison made earlier to a "Albert Belle/Josh Hamilton/Juan Gonzalez" type career for Judge is a strong one. He seems like a good guy and the comparison should not be considered a slight. I just think he will be a relative footnote long term for the game. However anyone can get into the "Hall of Nice Guys We Haven't Found Fault With Yet", so hell he's got as good of a chance as anyone on that list.

[packs]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Completely agree on this.

I can see the excitement for Yanks fans, but honestly other than a passing interest during the day's sports highlights this has little impact on my day to day. I also think the comparison made earlier to a "Albert Belle/Josh Hamilton/Juan Gonzalez" type career for Judge is a strong one. He seems like a good guy and the comparison should not be considered a slight. I just think he will be a relative footnote long term for the game. However anyone can get into the "Hall of Nice Guys We Haven't Found Fault With Yet", so hell he's got as good of a chance as anyone on that list.

What do you mean by footnote, though? I don't think Roger Maris is a footnote. If you're a serious baseball fan, you know his name and what he did and whose record he beat. If Judge hits 62 I think he'll occupy a similar space. Some people still think of Maris as the "true" record holder. When I think of footnotes I think of guys like Earl Webb, the all time single season doubles record holder.

[darwinbulldog]

I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that MLB is as popular as ever, or even as popular as it was in 1998, but it's always fun to watch players pursuing hallowed numbers. I expect Judge will end up with 62-64 HRs for the season, but what's really going to be a nail-biter is the pursuit of the Triple Crown. And while none of this is a record per se, he's also likely to be the only player other than Ruth himself to ever lead the league by 20+ HRs. Pujols is on a trajectory to finish with 700 or 701 career HRs if they start him for the rest of the season. I'm rooting for both of those guys, but the actual MLB record of interest to me rests with Framber Valdez, currently sitting on 25 consecutive quality starts with a chance to tie deGrom and Gibson's MLB record tomorrow night and break it next week.

All of this while Shohei Ohtani is outperforming his historically significant 2021 MVP year and Justin Verlander is outperforming his own historically significant MVP season, well, it makes for quite a season for those of us with intersecting interests in baseball and statistics.

[JimmyC]

I don't watch baseball like I used to anymore for many reasons.....still love collecting the vintage stuff though - from my youth and before - cards, game used stuff, autos, etc.....

So - I'll probably be watching replays when Judge hits 61 and beyond...which I look forward to...

From my perspective though, Maris is no footnote....He still holds the 162 game record for most home runs....PERIOD....Mac, Sosa and Bonds were juicers....cheats....plain and simple....

I know many of you here will disagree but that's what makes us all different!

Good luck to Judge....He seems like a good guy....The Maris children should be proud that their Dad's 162 game schedule home run record lasted 61 years...

IMHO

[BobC]

Originally Posted by JimmyC

I don't watch baseball like I used to anymore for many reasons.....still love collecting the vintage stuff though - from my youth and before - cards, game used stuff, autos, etc.....

So - I'll probably be watching replays when Judge hits 61 and beyond...which I look forward to...

From my perspective though, Maris is no footnote....He still holds the 162 game record for most home runs....PERIOD....Mac, Sosa and Bonds were juicers....cheats....plain and simple....

I know many of you here will disagree but that's what makes us all different!

Good luck to Judge....He seems like a good guy....The Maris children should be proud that their Dad's 162 game schedule home run record lasted 61 years...

IMHO

Well said!

[packs]

There have been a lot of articles and sports talk lately about what people view as the true record. It is a topic of conversation. I would say many casual fans do still view Maris as the record holder. Legitimate is a matter of opinion.

[raulus]

Reminds me a lot about when Drugged Earwig asserted that Hammerin Hank was the real home run king.

As a giants fan, this article always tickled my funny bone:

https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/pl...-king-ray-king

[BobC]

Originally Posted by packs

There have been a lot of articles and sports talk lately about what people view as the true record. It is a topic of conversation. I would say many casual fans do still view Maris as the record holder. Legitimate is a matter of opinion.

No one is arguing with you, but my responses were in regard to the posts about surprise being felt that there wasn't a lot more excitement and talk going on everywhere among fans and the public in general, in regard to Judge's achievement and going for such a record. There is not, and this is not, a debate about whether Bonds holds a "legitimate" record or not, it is an attempt to answer a question/comment posed about why more people may not be as excited about Judge's achievement than some others, and overall, displaying much less excitement and interest than they expected from the public in general.

The simple facts are that:

1. Not everyone is a serious fan and follows baseball as closely as others, so they truly don't care much, if at all, about what Judge is doing.

2. MLB still lists Bonds' 73 homers as the all-time single season record, so many people view that as the recognized record.

3. That someone would post saying they are surprised about the overall lack of excitement and talk surrounding Judge, shows that they have obviously underestimated the number of people that do fall into the categories I pointed out my first two fact points.

If you have any other, logical, intelligent, and/or common sensical points or ideas to otherwise explain why there may be less overall expected excitement and talk seen out in the general public surrounding Judge's achievement, I am happy to listen.

[yanks4]

Right on!!! Correct.....Period

Originally Posted by JimmyC

I don't watch baseball like I used to anymore for many reasons.....still love collecting the vintage stuff though - from my youth and before - cards, game used stuff, autos, etc.....

So - I'll probably be watching replays when Judge hits 61 and beyond...which I look forward to...

From my perspective though, Maris is no footnote....He still holds the 162 game record for most home runs....PERIOD....Mac, Sosa and Bonds were juicers....cheats....plain and simple....

I know many of you here will disagree but that's what makes us all different!

Good luck to Judge....He seems like a good guy....The Maris children should be proud that their Dad's 162 game schedule home run record lasted 61 years...

IMHO

[FrankWakefield]

What Judge is doing / may do is of interest to Yankee fans. And that's about it. He isn't in a home run chase. When driving along an interstate I'm not chasing or racing mile markers, I'm just passing them. Judge is clicking off home run markers.

In 1961, Mantle and Maris were hitting home runs, and the country started looking at the possibility of one or both reaching Ruth's 60. Mantle and Maris had each other for competition. In 1998, McGwire and Sosa, on different teams, did the same. Some baseball analysists and historians thought it revived the interest in baseball that had been hurt by the 1993 strike. Takes at least two to race.

I saw McGwire and Sosa that year. Batting practice had a different quality to it. It reminded me of Church. Quieter, and with a bit of reverence. When either stepped into the batting cage, it got quiet. Players in the dugouts stepped up to see. Fans watched. Ushers and vendors paused. And when a ball was well hit, Ooo's and Aah's replaced the Amen's. And the voiced acclaim extended if the ball was arcing up into the stands.

When I think of 1998, my mind shifts to NASCAR when the haters voice disdain for McGwire and Sosa. As a disgruntled and disagreeable teenager, I saw my first NASCAR race in 1971. I didn't want to go. I became a convert that day, I saw Richard Petty win the Daytona 500. As I slowly developed a bit of interest in the sport, I discovered this stuff about 1970 and the Plymouth Superbird, that car with the high spoiler wing so that it was slightly higher than the roof of the car, getting it up into clean air when the car was at speed. in 1970, Petty won about 18 races with Superbirds. It violated no NASCAR rules of the day. But NASCAR changed the rules. For Superbirds to run in the 1971 season they'd have to reduce horsepower; and the cars weren't selling well at dealerships so the requirement about having the number of cars sold having to equal or exceed 2 x total dealerships was going to be a problem. My point, MLB's steroids / PED ban commenced in 2005. McGwire and Sosa didn't break any rules in 1998, there weren't any. There were rules as Clemens ended his career with the Yankees. And for A-Rod at the end of his (more on A.Rod later). Bond's had his 73 HR year in 2001, before the rules. He only played in 14 games in 2005 (was he pausing to get so he'd pass substance tests?). He hit 54 HRs total in 2006 and 2007, enough to get him past Aaron... So you guys can lump oranges and apples together, but you should at least recognize the differences.

Who was the first baseball player to be suspected of using Performance Enhancing Drugs? May well have been Pud Galvin, who's already in the HOF.

A-Rod. He didn't play in 2014, he was suspended. If he'd played (and some other 'if's like testing clean or not testing positive), then he'd have easily passed 700 and he'd have had a likely shot at passing 714. Reckon MLB and NYY wanted him to pass Babe Ruth? I think not. And that one year suspension did it. Maybe management would have held him out of games and 'rested' him if he'd have gotten close. (Reminds me of Whitey Ford winning 20 games or more only two seasons. What I recall is that management didn't want Whitey winning 20+ games, because they didn't want him using that when bargaining contract salary. Publicly, the Yankees were resting him a bit, not working him to hard, so he'd be fresh for the World Series. There were a bunch of those.) And it reminds me of how 100 years ago and a bit, the Cubs let go of Ed Reulbach, and he was picked up by Brooklyn, then the Federal League Newark team, then the Boston Braves. He ended up with only 182 wins. But the owners held him out (I believe) because he was active in the Baseball Players' Fraternity, he was an officer. Owners didn't like that. I think the owners denied him 25-30 wins. That, with his 2.28 lifetime ERA, his career hits allowed each season was always fewer than his innings pitched... The owners, GRRRRR. They didn't keep him outa the Hall, there was no Hall at the time. But I think he'd be in now if the owners hadn't clamped down on him, and others, for advocating for players' rights. Imagine what they'd have done to Curt Flood.

A lot of the time I find myself hating on something. I guess us haters are gonna hate. Let's put a bit of information sauce on that portion of hate.

One more thing... in baseball trivia, did you guys see which player from the 1960's appeared in the most World Series games? I saw him play in two WS games, but I didn't know the answer.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

One more thing... in baseball trivia, did you guys see which player from the 1960's appeared in the most World Series games? I saw him play in two WS games, but I didn't know the answer.

Was it Roger Maris?

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

What Judge is doing / may do is of interest to Yankee fans. And that's about it.

Well, I think there is more interest in what Judge is doing than just in the Yankees universe, Lol.

But he seems to have gone into a little hitting funk. Pressure?

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

What Judge is doing / may do is of interest to Yankee fans. And that's about it. He isn't in a home run chase. When driving along an interstate I'm not chasing or racing mile markers, I'm just passing them. Judge is clicking off home run markers.

In 1961, Mantle and Maris were hitting home runs, and the country started looking at the possibility of one or both reaching Ruth's 60. Mantle and Maris had each other for competition. In 1998, McGwire and Sosa, on different teams, did the same. Some baseball analysists and historians thought it revived the interest in baseball that had been hurt by the 1993 strike. Takes at least two to race.

I saw McGwire and Sosa that year. Batting practice had a different quality to it. It reminded me of Church. Quieter, and with a bit of reverence. When either stepped into the batting cage, it got quiet. Players in the dugouts stepped up to see. Fans watched. Ushers and vendors paused. And when a ball was well hit, Ooo's and Aah's replaced the Amen's. And the voiced acclaim extended if the ball was arcing up into the stands.

When I think of 1998, my mind shifts to NASCAR when the haters voice disdain for McGwire and Sosa. As a disgruntled and disagreeable teenager, I saw my first NASCAR race in 1971. I didn't want to go. I became a convert that day, I saw Richard Petty win the Daytona 500. As I slowly developed a bit of interest in the sport, I discovered this stuff about 1970 and the Plymouth Superbird, that car with the high spoiler wing so that it was slightly higher than the roof of the car, getting it up into clean air when the car was at speed. in 1970, Petty won about 18 races with Superbirds. It violated no NASCAR rules of the day. But NASCAR changed the rules. For Superbirds to run in the 1971 season they'd have to reduce horsepower; and the cars weren't selling well at dealerships so the requirement about having the number of cars sold having to equal or exceed 2 x total dealerships was going to be a problem. My point, MLB's steroids / PED ban commenced in 2005. McGwire and Sosa didn't break any rules in 1998, there weren't any. There were rules as Clemens ended his career with the Yankees. And for A-Rod at the end of his (more on A.Rod later). Bond's had his 73 HR year in 2001, before the rules. He only played in 14 games in 2005 (was he pausing to get so he'd pass substance tests?). He hit 54 HRs total in 2006 and 2007, enough to get him past Aaron... So you guys can lump oranges and apples together, but you should at least recognize the differences.

Who was the first baseball player to be suspected of using Performance Enhancing Drugs? May well have been Pud Galvin, who's already in the HOF.

A-Rod. He didn't play in 2014, he was suspended. If he'd played (and some other 'if's like testing clean or not testing positive), then he'd have easily passed 700 and he'd have had a likely shot at passing 714. Reckon MLB and NYY wanted him to pass Babe Ruth? I think not. And that one year suspension did it. Maybe management would have held him out of games and 'rested' him if he'd have gotten close. (Reminds me of Whitey Ford winning 20 games or more only two seasons. What I recall is that management didn't want Whitey winning 20+ games, because they didn't want him using that when bargaining contract salary. Publicly, the Yankees were resting him a bit, not working him to hard, so he'd be fresh for the World Series. There were a bunch of those.) And it reminds me of how 100 years ago and a bit, the Cubs let go of Ed Reulbach, and he was picked up by Brooklyn, then the Federal League Newark team, then the Boston Braves. He ended up with only 182 wins. But the owners held him out (I believe) because he was active in the Baseball Players' Fraternity, he was an officer. Owners didn't like that. I think the owners denied him 25-30 wins. That, with his 2.28 lifetime ERA, his career hits allowed each season was always fewer than his innings pitched... The owners, GRRRRR. They didn't keep him outa the Hall, there was no Hall at the time. But I think he'd be in now if the owners hadn't clamped down on him, and others, for advocating for players' rights. Imagine what they'd have done to Curt Flood.

A lot of the time I find myself hating on something. I guess us haters are gonna hate. Let's put a bit of information sauce on that portion of hate.

One more thing... in baseball trivia, did you guys see which player from the 1960's appeared in the most World Series games? I saw him play in two WS games, but I didn't know the answer.

Rules? What Bonds and the steroid cheats did was basically against the LAW. You can't get em from your buddy.

Besides that. Judge is doing it clean (we assume) so 60 is a big deal.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by packs

What do you mean by footnote, though? I don't think Roger Maris is a footnote. If you're a serious baseball fan, you know his name and what he did and whose record he beat. If Judge hits 62 I think he'll occupy a similar space. Some people still think of Maris as the "true" record holder. When I think of footnotes I think of guys like Earl Webb, the all time single season doubles record holder.

Maris held the record, 62 will not be the record and will be a footnote. It will have no mention in any record book (other than Yankees team records) and no ball will sit in the Hall.

As to anyone going on the notion of the game as some platonic ideal existing before the big bad performance enhancers is patently false and the reason why the HOF is a joke. Today's players are more than likely the cleanest in history with the tightest rules but you can make a salient argument that Tommy john surgery or even Lazik is a performance enhancer not had by previous generations so that beat will go on forever.

I can pretend that Willie Mays and Mantle did not take amphetamines (Mantle is an excellent example because the reason he was out of the race in 61' was a botched shot from a known doctor giving cocktails of speed and steroids), but that would be ignoring facts. I can pretend the deadball pitching records were not exacerbated by a legal spitball and a high mound. I can pretend that the first record of attempted steroid use was not by a HOF member in 1889. I can pretend that Lyle Alzado was not stacking steroids in college in 1967 and I am supposed to believe that something that easy to find was untouched in the major leagues even while legal until the mid-80's. I can pretend a lot, but that's just sitting in a bar and ignoring what really happened and just accept that life goes on.

We can't erase history any more and need to just move on. No matter what, the record is not 61 in any book. It is a great season for Judge and I will give him that for sure, but not historic.

[D. Bergin]

It's the AL record.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

It's the AL record.

ok, I stand corrected, It will go in the books for that reason.

Apologies for that omission.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

It's the AL record.

And I'm all for that being a thing, although I'm not sure that it's all that meaningful in the modern game.

But sometimes, we have some silly stats/records out there. Highest batting average against left handed pitchers with last names starting with V under a corn moon comes to mind as one that I'm sure we'll see in the near future.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by raulus

And I'm all for that being a thing, although I'm not sure that it's all that meaningful in the modern game.

But sometimes, we have some silly stats/records out there. Highest batting average against left handed pitchers with last names starting with V under a corn moon comes to mind as one that I'm sure we'll see in the near future.

I'll have to keep my fingers crossed for Verlander to still be playing in 2025.

[D. Bergin]

I mean, everybody has a different acceptance level for certain things. I don't think the AL HR record is exactly some marginalized new age stat, brought into play recently by the Sybermetric nerds.

....and I don't take very seriously Cy Youngs and Jack Chesbro's pitching wins stats, or Hugh Nichols single season stolen base record either.

I'm a Yankee fan, and I'm not going to start spouting that Judge is the single season king...but I do think it is very ground-breaking what he is doing...especially in a season when offense and HR's among his peers, is traditionally down.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Maris held the record, 62 will not be the record and will be a footnote. It will have no mention in any record book (other than Yankees team records) and no ball will sit in the Hall.

As to anyone going on the notion of the game as some platonic ideal existing before the big bad performance enhancers is patently false and the reason why the HOF is a joke. Today's players are more than likely the cleanest in history with the tightest rules but you can make a salient argument that Tommy john surgery or even Lazik is a performance enhancer not had by previous generations so that beat will go on forever.

I can pretend that Willie Mays and Mantle did not take amphetamines (Mantle is an excellent example because the reason he was out of the race in 61' was a botched shot from a known doctor giving cocktails of speed and steroids), but that would be ignoring facts. I can pretend the deadball pitching records were not exacerbated by a legal spitball and a high mound. I can pretend that the first record of attempted steroid use was not by a HOF member in 1889. I can pretend that Lyle Alzado was not stacking steroids in college in 1967 and I am supposed to believe that something that easy to find was untouched in the major leagues even while legal until the mid-80's. I can pretend a lot, but that's just sitting in a bar and ignoring what really happened and just accept that life goes on.

We can't erase history any more and need to just move on. No matter what, the record is not 61 in any book. It is a great season for Judge and I will give him that for sure, but not historic.

WADA disagrees with you. They consider MLB's testing and penalties inadequate. Tim Montgomery set the world record in the 100 meters. If you look in the record books you see no record of him ever setting the record. He was one of BALCOs clients along with Barry Bonds.

We certainly can erase the history of cheaters. That is the international standard of sports. Lance Armstrong won zero Tour de Frances. You are entitled to believe Bonds holds the record just as anyone else is entitled to call Maris the true record holder and if Judge hits 62, the new record holder.