So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

I believe they have value to a point yes....but I also feel they are a bit flawed...like all metrics. And like all sports I don't think the numbers necessarily tell everything...they do more so in baseball than the other 3 major sports IMO. But when the WAR is that close...and I see a MJOR gap in counting statistics like BB, RBI, HR....and the stats that lean the other way are negligible....makes my decision easy. Macro/Aggregate view vs micro/hypothetical view for me

Okay, well, I don't think any amount of statistical analysis is going to change your mind. So we will just have to agree to disagree.

I do want to point out that most people on this thread, myself included think it is pretty even between the two. You may be the odd man out in thinking that Kaline is obviously better than Clemente.

[G1911]

I am hard pressed to think of, among the greats, two more closely matched contemporaries at a position. Maybe Dickey and Cochrane?

Whoever comes out on top, it's by a small margin.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

I am hard pressed to think of, among the greats, two more closely matched contemporaries at a position. Maybe Dickey and Cochrane?

Whoever comes out on top, it's by a small margin.

Ooooh Dickey vs. Cochrane is a really good one. I'd have to think about that one for a while.

[Touch'EmAll]

Berra won MVP in 1951, 1954 & 1955. Was 2nd in voting 1953 & 1956.

Campy won MVP in 1951, 1953 & 1955

[Shemp]

Here are the top 5 WAR's for Kaline:

1961 - 8.5
1955 - 8.4
1967 - 7.5
1956 - 5.5
1958 - 5.5

Kaline's best 5 year period was 1955 to 1959 with total WAR of 32.6.
Kaline had 3 seasons with a WAR above 7.0.


Here are the top 5 WAR's for Clemente:

1967 - 9.0
1966 - 8.2
1968 - 8.2
1969 - 7.5
1971 - 7.5

Clemente's best 5 year period was 1965 to 1969 with total WAR of 40.0.
Clemente had 7 seasons with a WAR above 7.0.

So for me the question is "which player at their peak gives my team the best chance of winning?". Clemente looks to be that guy. Is he overrated? No. He's a notch below Aaron but above contemporaries like Frank Robinson or Johnny Callison.

Kaline may not have had as many high WAR years but was a very steady and reliable player for a long time. Is he overrated? No. Was he better than Frank Robinson? No. Was he better than Johnny Callison? Yes.

Full disclosure: as a kid in the 1960's my favorite player was Clemente.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Shemp

Here are the top 5 WAR's for Kaline:

1961 - 8.5
1955 - 8.4
1967 - 7.5
1956 - 5.5
1958 - 5.5

Kaline's best 5 year period was 1955 to 1959 with total WAR of 32.6.
Kaline had 3 seasons with a WAR above 7.0.


Here are the top 5 WAR's for Clemente:

1967 - 9.0
1966 - 8.2
1968 - 8.2
1969 - 7.5
1971 - 7.5

Clemente's best 5 year period was 1965 to 1969 with total WAR of 40.0.
Clemente had 7 seasons with a WAR above 7.0.

So for me the question is "which player at their peak gives my team the best chance of winning?". Clemente looks to be that guy. Is he overrated? No. He's a notch below Aaron but above contemporaries like Frank Robinson or Johnny Callison.

Kaline may not have had as many high WAR years but was a very steady and reliable player for a long time. Is he overrated? No. Was he better than Frank Robinson? No. Was he better than Johnny Callison? Yes.

Full disclosure: as a kid in the 1960's my favorite player was Clemente.

Wait, you're taking Clemente over Frank Robinson? Sign me up for that trade, I'll even toss in Milt Pappas.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Okay, well, I don't think any amount of statistical analysis is going to change your mind. So we will just have to agree to disagree.

I do want to point out that most people on this thread, myself included think it is pretty even between the two. You may be the odd man out in thinking that Kaline is obviously better than Clemente.

I think it is very close...but my "statistical analysis" is tilted to the guy that had a massive advantage in some pretty big categories...RBI BB SB HR...everything else was +/- IMO

I think more people had/have an emotional attachement to RC...and thats's OK...he's more iconic for sure

I think...again...thoe trying to use "statistical analysis" for clemente are grasping at best using various random stats....where as I am saying look at there numbers as a whole where they ended up. No ifs and coulds or buts...no take this year or age or in the month of May...Total career stats. They definitely lean one way. Defense is a wash IMO...hard to give a guy a large edge oer another that has 10 GG and just as good of an arm.