So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by profholt82

These guys are so close, both the cornerstone of their teams for many years. Both at 3000 hits(well, 1307 to 1300, but come on). Clemente with the higher career BA (.297 to .317), but Kaline with a lot more HR and RBI (399/1583 to 240/1305). So I think batting is about a wash. Both were excellent fielders with double digit Golden Glove seasons.

Kaline
18 All Star
10 Golden Gloves
1 Batting Championship
0 MVP, although it's easy to argue he had a better 1955 campaign than winner Yogi Berra when you https://www.baseball-reference.com/a..._AL_MVP_voting. Pound sign Yankees bias. Ha!

Clemente
15 All Star
12 Golden Gloves
4 Batting Championships
1 MVP


Let's get into the weeds a bit...

Kaline
1277 Bases on Balls
137 Stolen Bases
65 Caught Stealing

Clemente
623 Bases on Balls
83 Stolen Bases
46 Caught Stealing

Deep Dive statistical comparison:
https://stathead.com/baseball/player...um=0&request=1


In their careers, Kaline played for 22 seasons, 2834 games. Clemente played 18 seasons, 2433 games. And it's worth noting that Kaline's final two seasons fell off dramatically, batting .255 and .262 those years with no Golden Gloves. Meanwhile, Clemente batted .341 and .312 his final two years with Golden Gloves in both. With his tragic demise at 37, we can only guess at what it would have been had he played for 3 or 4 more years. It is worth pointing out that in Kaline's 3rd to last season, he was 37 and batted .313.


So what does all of this information tell me? That it's impossible to say which one is better. They were both excellent, among the greatest players of all time. Both in the hitting and fielding conversations. Even looking purely at statistics, it's practically impossible to choose, they're so close.

Actually I think your post...whether you like it or not....pretty clearly makes the case for one over the other!

[profholt82]

Ha! I love it. Who? Clemente? I think I'd lean him with career average and batting titles gun to my head, but I consider the Kaline HR power to be an equalizer. I don't know, pouring over those numbers for 20 minutes or so this morning, perhaps I was just too close to it to see the obvious.

[packs]

I think you made a pretty clear case for Clemente. As you noted, Kaline wasn't shorted any portion of his career. He was cooked when he retired. But Clemente was still an All Star player and putting up numbers that garnered him MVP votes every year.

The discussion has been predicated on how similar their numbers are. But I think it's fairly certain Clemente would have eclipsed Kaline if given the additional years, although that assumes he wasn't considering retirement anyway.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by packs

I think you made a pretty clear case for Clemente. As you noted, Kaline wasn't shorted any portion of his career. He was cooked when he retired. But Clemente was still an All Star player and putting up numbers that garnered him MVP votes every year.

The discussion has been predicated on how similar their numbers are. But I think it's fairly certain Clemente would have eclipsed Kaline if given the additional years, although that assumes he wasn't considering retirement anyway.

Except Kaline and Clemente's Age 37 seasons (Clemente's last) were remarkably similar so why would one assume Clemente was going to age better than Kaline?

[packs]

I guess because there's no reason not to?

Kaline was a largely forgotten man the last 7 seasons of his career. He received MVP votes in only one of them and finished 24th. He made 2 all star teams.

Clemente missed 1 all star game in the final 13 seasons of his career. He finished 5th in MVP voting in 1971 and 13th in 1972. He received MVP votes in 12 of his final 13 seasons.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Except Kaline and Clemente's Age 37 seasons (Clemente's last) were remarkably similar so why would one assume Clemente was going to age better than Kaline?

Kaline and Clemente did have very similar slash lines at age 37:
Kaline: .313/.374/.475
Clemente: .312/.356/.479

What I think separates them is that Clemente was still a fantastic fielder. Clemente won his 12th straight Gold Glove in '72 (tying Mays for most ever by an OF). Clemente had a positive dwar of 1.0
Kaline had a negative dwar of -.4

Furthermore, Kaline was transitioning to 1st base. Therefore, his offensive WAR was lower because 1B typically has better offensive stats than Right Fielders.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Except Kaline and Clemente's Age 37 seasons (Clemente's last) were remarkably similar so why would one assume Clemente was going to age better than Kaline?

Or to put it better..take away Kaline's last 2 years then....

Other than Avg...what does Clemente hold over him?

HR
RBI
SB

all heavly favor Kaline

[packs]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Or to put it better..take away Kaline's last 2 years then....

Other than Avg...what does Clemente hold over him?

HR
RBI
SB

all heavly favor Kaline

I think it's already well established that Clemente did age better than Kaline. I don't look at his final seasons and see a star in decline, whereas it seems like Kaline had been diminishing since 1968.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by packs

I think it's already well established that Clemente did age better than Kaline. I don't look at his final seasons and see a star in decline, whereas it seems like Kaline had been diminishing since 1968.

Again...

This is like arguing and disclaiming Bonds..Clemens...etc.

Ifs...buts...maybes....

Taking their careers...as a whole...The stats IMO heavily favor Kaline

You can point to Clemente's avg...and more..triples?

I personally would take the:

200 more Runs
650 more Walks
275 more RBIs
160 more HRs
50 more SBs

Even for all of you wanting to add on 2-3 more hypothetical years ...Clemente still at best leads in Hits/Avg

I still take the RBI/HR/Walks and a guy that hit for avg...vs a guy that pretty much just hit for avg.