1912 T207 PSA Population Report

[rand1com]

I was looking at the Population Report on PSA for this issue and see no backs delineated. I know SGC has a pop report by back. Is there any way to distinguish population by back on the PSA site that I am overlooking?

[Bridwell]

As an avid collector of these, I thought I'd attempt a response to you on this. PSA doesn't separate the T207's by back variety in their pop reports. SGC had done some separation by backs but it was inconsistent. So it is difficult to tell how many are out there. You can look on vintagecardpricing if you have a subscription and review sales of T207's where quite a few of the backs are noted.

There have been a few detailed articles written about T207's, and PSA pop reports can give you an idea of the lowest population players. Loudermilk, Irv Lewis and Donlin are probably the most expensive players to acquire. Out of 200 different players, there are 50 players that come with either Cycle, Broadleaf, Anon 25 or Anon 3 backs and all 50 of them are pretty tough to find in nice condition. Of the other 150 players, those mainly have Recruit backs but about 50 of them can be found with Anon 3 backs but those are pretty scarce and perhaps at least 100 could be found with Napoleon backs but, again, those are hard to find.

Some of the other expensive cards in the set are Buck Weaver, Tris Speaker, Harry Hooper, Walter Johnson and Joe Wood.

[swarmee]

PSA has never broken out T205 backs either, despite being a much higher collected set with major value differences between the backs. Maybe now that the backlog has been eclipsed, they can include all the different backs of T205 and get a ton of submissions for reholders to annotate it.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by Bridwell

As an avid collector of these, I thought I'd attempt a response to you on this. PSA doesn't separate the T207's by back variety in their pop reports. SGC had done some separation by backs but it was inconsistent. So it is difficult to tell how many are out there. You can look on vintagecardpricing if you have a subscription and review sales of T207's where quite a few of the backs are noted.

There have been a few detailed articles written about T207's, and PSA pop reports can give you an idea of the lowest population players. Loudermilk, Irv Lewis and Donlin are probably the most expensive players to acquire. Out of 200 different players, there are 50 players that come with either Cycle, Broadleaf, Anon 25 or Anon 3 backs and all 50 of them are pretty tough to find in nice condition. Of the other 150 players, those mainly have Recruit backs but about 50 of them can be found with Anon 3 backs but those are pretty scarce and perhaps at least 100 could be found with Napoleon backs but, again, those are hard to find.

Some of the other expensive cards in the set are Buck Weaver, Tris Speaker, Harry Hooper, Walter Johnson and Joe Wood.

Thanks for the information. Yes, I have a VCP subscription so I can see the completed sales for graded cards and the back variations but the pop reports would be a help. I guess just not enough interest to break this set or the T205's by back on PSA's site. I really just started researching this set and was just looking for as much information as possible. Thanks again.

[53toppscollector]

One of my long term projects is to actually create a PSA pop report for T205 and T207 with an accurate accounting of the backs. It won't be exact, but it should help to provide ratios and allow us to make assumptions. T205 is probably going to come first (because I am going to tackle a T205 complete set before T207), but both will come behind the various T206 themed projects I am currently working on.

[frohme]

Originally Posted by rand1com

Thanks for the information. Yes, I have a VCP subscription so I can see the completed sales for graded cards and the back variations but the pop reports would be a help. I guess just not enough interest to break this set or the T205's by back on PSA's site. I really just started researching this set and was just looking for as much information as possible. Thanks again.

Hey Randy,

Ron covered the gist, and alluded to other detailed articles. I can provide a little color (pun intended). If you've gone through the various T207 threads on the forum and the T207 overview (and linked threads) in the Archive Center, you've got a great start. IMO, the population bible on the set is Tim N's multi-year survey, documented in VCBC #'s 37 and 38 with relative population breakdowns by back, amongst other things. His survey wrapped up in 2004 but is still accurate as things go, and while - nearly 20 years on - there are additional aspects to his survey that could be improved upon, it stands on its own as an excellent piece of work. Bob M has a companion article in issue 37, I recall. The combination of those articles is responsible for my obsession with the set.

I've been collecting/studying it since 2006, but my recordkeeping and attention to detail isn't so great, or I'd have more detailed info to share... only specific correction I'd make to Ron's answer is that the Napoleon back confirmation thread has reached 145 confirmed backs, so is nearly complete.

--
Mike

[t206fanatic]

For a long time, PSA didnt denote backs on T206 cards either, so I imagine in the future they will do it for both T205 & T207

[frohme]

SGC has routinely labeled backs for quite some time now (more than a decade, I believe). I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any that don't have the back identified (the ones labeled just '1912 T207' are the anonymous backs, FWIW)

They do not, however, include the factory number for Recruit and Anonymous backs.

Here's a pretty old-school one (and because every thread needs a card)



--
Mike

[rand1com]

What is considered the toughest card/back version in the set disregarding Red Cross backs?

[RCMcKenzie]

With 145 known backs, are Napoleon backs thought to be complete at 150?

I thought I read that ANON 3 could be found on every subject. Is there a confirmed list for ANON 3? Is it thought to mirror the Napoleon checklist?

Both backs are hard to find. I have a small collection of about 15 Napoleon and 10-12 Anon 3. I guess I should check to see what I have. I will report back.

[Bridwell]

There are 99 different players known with Anon 3 backs. 50 are from the Broadleaf/Cycle players and 49 from the Recruit/Napoleon players. I haven't seen an official list, but I have a sample of all 99 on the Anon 3 cards. There are 150 Recruit players so probably those same 150 can be found with Napoleon backs. Some of the Anon 3 back players and Napoleon back cards are the rarest since only 1 or 2 examples are known of a few of them. If you send me the list of the 10-12 Anon 3's you have, I can let you know if you have any that I don't have.

[RCMcKenzie]

Thanks for the info, Ron. I'll look and post what I have tomorrow. I doubt I have anything new, because all were bought in the last 15 years at sportscard auctions and a few on eBay.

I'm thinking I may start over with Cycle backs, because x/50 is more realistic for me to finish.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's what I have for ANON 3. All are Broadleaf/Cycle series except for Kling, which is from Recruit/Napoleon. Old Cardboard has a checklist for the B/C or R/N series. I'm guessing if 99 ANON 3 are known, then 1 is missing. Do we know which one should be eventually found?

Phelan, E Moore, Otto Miller, V Gregg, Kutina, O Wilson, J Ryan, Kirke, Donnelly, Kling, Tyler

[frohme]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

[...]
I'm guessing if 99 ANON 3 are known, then 1 is missing. Do we know which one should be eventually found?
[...]

This has been a topic of some conversation since (as far as I'm aware) Tim N first hypothesized - in VCBC 38 I believe - that there would be 50 Recruit-class cards found with the anon 3 back (though he only had 22 listed from his survey). As Ron says, there are 49 known (list below). Some of the "harder" Recruit-class T207's are not represented in the list, and are the most common supposition. Of these, Ellis seems the most natural candidate. I believe the 49 number only came to be reached with the Heritage lot(s) auctioned in Oct 2012.

(esoterica on)
There are a couple of patterns amongst all this:

1) The Recruits found with an anon-3 back generally have the coloring (logos, emblems, names) of the Broadleaf class cards (Pitts, Wash, Boston are good examples, Chi not so much). Easier to see if you look at T207 laid out by team. Brooklyn is an outlier, as Schardt and Rucker break the pattern (brown cap emblem), unlike Higgins, Knetzer, Northen and and Tooley.

2) As far as I'm aware, players found with a silver border (as opposed to tan) will not be found with an anon-3 back. This is purely speculative, as I'm not aware of a formal categorization of the borders to date, and some Recruits seem to be found with both, and some are only silver or only tan...

3) There seems to be (at the moment) a separation between Anon-3, blank, and brown-ink back amongst the Recruits. Some categorization has been done on the latter two backs, and to-date, there is no overlap. This is very preliminary, and there isn't an obvious reason whay this might be the case, but it is a valid (current) observation.

4) They (the Anon 3 Recruits specifically) are very rare at grades better than VG. I have only seen one or two. Ron may be able to provide more info here, or provide good counter examples, but they generally have not faired well with time. Broadleaf class Anon-3's are found at grades at least to Ex/Nm, though not nearly as often as their less-common Factory 25 counterparts.
(esoterica off)

I think its just a matter of time before more is known, as other samples come to light, but I suspect Tim's supposition that there would be 50 is still a good working hypothesis.

The list of anon-3 recruits:
Block
Bodie
Carrigan
Cicotte
Collins
Easterly
Engle
Fromme
George
Gowdy
Graham
Hageman
Hall
Hallinan
Hamilton
Henry
Higgins
Hogan
Hooper
Kling
Knetzer
Leach
Leifield
Lewis
Lord (Harry)
McDonald
McIntyre
McKechnie
Mitchell (Mike)
Morgan (Ray)
Northen
Nunamaker
Perdue
Rucker
Schardt
Scott
Smith (Frank)
Speaker
Spratt
Steele
Stovall
Sullivan
Thomas
Tooley
Wagner
Wallace
Wingo
Wood
Zeider

--
Mike

[frohme]

Originally Posted by rand1com

What is considered the toughest card/back version in the set disregarding Red Cross backs?

I'd be hard-pressed to pick one. I think most would say a Lewis-No-emblem is the hardest card, period, with populations in the low double digits. One of those would outweigh most of the known low population 'common' cards, though the latter will be in the 'less than two hands-full' known.

The Broadleaf-class cards are - for the most part - on par difficulty-wise, and backs have little effect upon that. The big-3 (now 4) are over-hyped and aren't any more difficult than many of their peers. They go for $$$$ for historical reasons, IMO.

The Recruits have been covered above, I guess, and are where the devil hides.

--
Mike

[frohme]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

With 145 known backs, are Napoleon backs thought to be complete at 150?

Napoleon will be complete - likely at 150. Most recent addition to the survey came in 2020, if I recall. Major interesting thing to date (to me at least) is that each of the 4 Recruit cards with variations (Austin, Fischer, Livingston, and Mullin) only have one of the variations confirmed. I think its probably statistically significant enough with the few cards remaining to be confirmed that they could move to 'unlikely'.

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Is there a confirmed list for ANON 3?

Posted above.

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Is it thought to mirror the Napoleon checklist?

No, its a subset.

--
Mike

[Leon]

Concerning T207 backs, that was a lot of blank backs at auction last night.
.

[frohme]

Originally Posted by Leon

Concerning T207 backs, that was a lot of blank backs at auction last night.
.

Yep, something close to 80% (32/41) of the cataloged T207 poses (Recruit-class) known with a blank back were represented.

Cataloged is a really rough term in this context... more like informally jotted down somewhere that was actually found when putting the list together...

--
Mike

[rand1com]

Does anyone have a valid number of PSA graded Louis Lowdermilk cards with the Cycle back? I know the total number graded but am trying to accurately(as much as is possible) determine the pop number of this version.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by Leon

Concerning T207 backs, that was a lot of blank backs at auction last night.
.

I was fortunate to pick up nine of them. At between $80-120 each I think they're a bargain compared to their T205/206 cousins.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

I was fortunate to pick up nine of them. At between $80-120 each I think they're a bargain compared to their T205/206 cousins.

I agree and I am not sure they are not too much more common, this group notwithstanding. But maybe I am not as in tune with them as I used to be.

If I could find a red cross I might start another back run of the 207s...
.

[frohme]

As obsessed as I've been with T207 over the past 15 years, they do absolutely nothing for me. But maybe I'm an outlier - blanks backs in T205/6 do nothing for me either.

I've written off Red Cross, too, Leon - not because I don't like it ... I just can't stomach that $$ on top of the Broadleaf-class premiums already at play.

--
Mike

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree and I am not sure they are too much more common, this group notwithstanding. But maybe I am not as in tune with them as I used to be.

If I could find a red cross I might start another back run of the 207s...
.

[Bridwell]

There have been a couple of large groups of blank back T207's that have come on the market. Maybe 40 at a time. One group was listed separately on Ebay about 10 years ago. Seeing so many made me question their scarcity, in comparison to T206 or T205. I bought one card as a sample. Surprisingly, I've seen very few listed for sale in the last 5 years, so I did bid on 4 in the recent auction and won one of them as another sample card. I think they were a good investment for you. T207 rare backs are jumping up in price lately. Blank backs are probably scarcer than Broadleaf, Red Cycle, Anonymous backs or Napoleon backs.