Taking money out of retirement funds to purchase cards

[Johnny630]

Drew, I have heard some of the same things from dealers who set up at the bigger shows with the higher-end vintage names I collect. From what I’ve seen and heard this has been commonplace since around the Start of all these Vaults, especially since March 2020. Idk to each their own I guess.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Andrew, I have heard some of the same things from dealers who set up at the bigger shows with the higher-end vintage names I collect. From what I’ve seen and heard this has been commonplace since around the Start of all these Vaults, especially since March 2020. Idk to each their own I guess.

And once the cards are in the vault, then you can borrow against them to buy more cards!

So not only have you placed 100% of your assets into cards, you've leveraged up to 160% or more...

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by raulus

And once the cards are in the vault, then you can borrow against them to buy more cards!

So not only have you placed 100% of your assets into cards, you've leveraged up to 160% or more...

Isn't it wild!! Feels like a very slippery slope to me. Idk thank God we have smart guys with money who love the cards and are keeping this hobby strong many of whom are on this board :-)

[raulus]

I guess maybe they follow Michael Saylor, except instead of Bitcoin, they go with cards:

‘How do I buy more Bitcoin?’ Take all your money. Buy Bitcoin. Then take all your time, figure out how to borrow money to buy more Bitcoin, then take all your time and figure out what you can sell to buy Bitcoin.” - Michael Saylor

[x2drich2000]

I don't think enough info is provided. What type of retirement account are they withdrawing funds from? What are the ages? Withdrawing from a 401k is much different than withdrawing from a Roth IRA same as withdrawing before age 59 1/2 is a lot different than withdrawing after age 59 1/2. That information will have drastically different issues with taxes and penalties on the withdrawal. As I understand the rules, personally I might consider it from a Roth IRA, but wouldn't even think about it from a 401k.

[Johnny630]

You could take out what you put into your Roth Accounts Before 59 and a half without any penalty, just not your gains.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

You could take out what you put into your Roth Accounts Before 59 and a half without any penalty, just not your gains.

Exactly my point. Withdrawing from a 401k you'll get rocked on the penalties and taxes, but a Roth you're not going to have the same expenses taking out your contributions.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

I don't think enough info is provided. What type of retirement account are they withdrawing funds from? What are the ages? Withdrawing from a 401k is much different than withdrawing from a Roth IRA same as withdrawing before age 59 1/2 is a lot different than withdrawing after age 59 1/2. That information will have drastically different issues with taxes and penalties on the withdrawal. As I understand the rules, personally I might consider it from a Roth IRA, but wouldn't even think about it from a 401k.

Good thoughts, DJ.
First of all, I haven't gotten into debt over cards. I might extend a payment for a short period, but that's it. And that is because I didn't want to take money from retirement accounts. And I am still not going to do it BUT .....

...As devil's advocate. What is the difference from taking it from one account or the other AS LONG as you account for the tax implications. Let's say I want to buy a 35k card out of my 401k. Whenever I take it out, now or later, it's going to be taxed. IF I account for that, and take 50k? out, to pay the taxes, what's the difference?

(and I have both IRA and ROTHs). I just turned 61 (dang I am old).

[Republicaninmass]

I believe you can withdraw without penalty from a traditional 401k without penalty if you replace it within 90 days.

So many kids over on blowout using credit cards to buy modern boxes from panini, grade the cards on their credit card, just to flip and pay the card off before interest accrues. A dangerous game of hot potato.

But cards only go up

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Leon

Good thoughts, DJ.
...As devil's advocate. What is the difference from taking it from one account or the other AS LONG as you account for the tax implications. Let's say I want to buy a 35k card out of my 401k. Whenever I take it out, now or later, it's going to be taxed. IF I account for that, and take 50k? out, to pay the taxes, what's the difference?

(and I have both IRA and ROTHs). I just turned 61 (dang I am old).

First, congrats on reaching 61, Leon.

Second, while the tax penalties are important, don't miss the forest for the trees here. The major point that this discussion is missing is that once you withdraw funds from a retirement account, you can never put them back in. There are very low annual limits that limit the amount that you can contribute to your tax-advantaged retirement accounts. If you start pulling cash out, then your ability to put it back into those accounts is very limited. And for those of us with a short runway between now and retirement, your ability to replace those funds is even more limited.

The ability to bank tax-deferred (or tax-free in the case of a Roth) growth in a retirement account for multiple decades is one of the easiest and low-risk financial layups in our country.

For most Americans, we already are woefully short (financially speaking) when it comes to preparing for retirement. For Americans in their 50s, the median account balance is ~$60k. If you've got $60k in your retirement account and you're in your 50s, I can guarantee you that pulling those funds to buy cards is going to leave you waaaaaaaaay short for retirement.

Let's say you pull $50k out of your Roth today, instead of leaving it in the account for the next 30 years before you need it. If it grows on average at 7% per year (which is not an unreasonable assumption), at the end of 30 years, you've got $380k, all of which is tax free. If it grows at 8%, then you're talking $500k.

Even for someone like Leon who just turned 61, the odds are good that you will live to be 80 or 90, so you may very well be keeping some portion of your retirement account invested for the next 20+ years.

Don't just focus on the tax penalties, because that's a total and complete red herring in this discussion. Remember that there's a lot more involved than just what happens today, because making this decision today could dramatically affect your financial health once you to reach retirement.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Leon

Good thoughts, DJ.
First of all, I haven't gotten into debt over cards. I might extend a payment for a short period, but that's it. And that is because I didn't want to take money from retirement accounts. And I am still not going to do it BUT .....

...As devil's advocate. What is the difference from taking it from one account or the other AS LONG as you account for the tax implications. Let's say I want to buy a 35k card out of my 401k. Whenever I take it out, now or later, it's going to be taxed. IF I account for that, and take 50k? out, to pay the taxes, what's the difference?

(and I have both IRA and ROTHs). I just turned 61 (dang I am old).

In many cases you can get a loan against your 401K and pay yourself back with the interest going to you. Not that I'm advocating that to buy sports cards.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Leon

Good thoughts, DJ.
First of all, I haven't gotten into debt over cards. I might extend a payment for a short period, but that's it. And that is because I didn't want to take money from retirement accounts. And I am still not going to do it BUT .....

...As devil's advocate. What is the difference from taking it from one account or the other AS LONG as you account for the tax implications. Let's say I want to buy a 35k card out of my 401k. Whenever I take it out, now or later, it's going to be taxed. IF I account for that, and take 50k? out, to pay the taxes, what's the difference?

(and I have both IRA and ROTHs). I just turned 61 (dang I am old).

The answer is different for different people but for some they will be in a lower tax bracket when they retire. Thus, the t (tax rate) is not the same in both cases. Secondly, by withdrawing early you loose the compounding in the money. That said, the compounding on the card might exceed that on the retirement account investment (or it might not). The other thing to consider is that the transaction fees for buying and selling cards, if done via the auction route, are much higher than fees in the equity markets.