Preference of Buying Venues

[Casey2296]

Last - auction houses. A large number of people running respected auctions are the same people who have been involved in hobby frauds, horrible business practices, thefts, and staggering dishonesty. Honesty is rare, full disclosure rare, hyperbole everywhere. Fees are typically hidden (few state the shipping on an item at all), shilling is rampant and often done by the auction house and their cronies themselves, and I have 0 trust they are not bidding up to my max. They require references to even register which is offputting more than difficult (eBay, car dealerships, my bank, nobody I have ever done business with for amounts far more than I would be bidding in a card auction requires me to do this). It is likewise easy to calculate the buyers premium, but another annoying business practice that most hide it to try and make you forget to do the calculation (bid + premium + tax + the unknown shipping fee they don’t state). The format runs late into the night usually. It has the most cons, and items sell at the highest prices. It’s the clear loser for a buyer in my shoes. I usually do not register, about half of them I will declina.

You posted that they were all the same as a group, they're not.

Your post is pretty clear and I don't disagree with you, but be specific with your accusations, do you think the three people mentioned are involved in fraud or dishonesty? Registering? I literally put Leon's name for a reference and am approved instantly.

To be specific, I will never do business with Ken Goldin because I think he's a Huckster, and that's ok, Ken doesn't need my business and I don't care if he has my Wonka golden ticket cuz it's not as important to me as integrity.

PWCC? It's like walking into a den of thieves, but that's the game with them, play it or not.

All I'm saying is be specific with your accusations because the three folks mentioned have nothing to do with that.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Last - auction houses. A large number of people running respected auctions are the same people who have been involved in hobby frauds, horrible business practices, thefts, and staggering dishonesty. Honesty is rare, full disclosure rare, hyperbole everywhere. Fees are typically hidden (few state the shipping on an item at all), shilling is rampant and often done by the auction house and their cronies themselves, and I have 0 trust they are not bidding up to my max. They require references to even register which is offputting more than difficult (eBay, car dealerships, my bank, nobody I have ever done business with for amounts far more than I would be bidding in a card auction requires me to do this). It is likewise easy to calculate the buyers premium, but another annoying business practice that most hide it to try and make you forget to do the calculation (bid + premium + tax + the unknown shipping fee they don’t state). The format runs late into the night usually. It has the most cons, and items sell at the highest prices. It’s the clear loser for a buyer in my shoes. I usually do not register, about half of them I will declina.

You posted that they were all the same as a group, they're not.

Your post is pretty clear and I don't disagree with you, but be specific with your accusations, do you think the three people mentioned are involved in fraud or dishonesty? Registering? I literally put Leon's name for a reference and am approved instantly.

To be specific, I will never do business with Ken Goldin because I think he's a Huckster, and that's ok, Ken doesn't need my business and I don't care if he has my Wonka golden ticket cuz it's not as important to me as integrity.

PWCC? It's like walking into a den of thieves, but that's the game with them, play it or not.

All I'm saying is be specific with your accusations because the three folks mentioned have nothing to do with that.

I posted that they are all the same as a group in my ranking, as in the ranking tiers replying to the point. I am not the first to group auction houses as a buying option in my ordered list. Are you upset at those other posters? Are you upset I did not list every trading partner as a separate item? Are you upset that I did not list out every dealer as a separate item? Why would I break out every single auction house as a separate item in the list? Nobody seems to be doing that.

Read what I wrote. Notice the frequent use of words obviously indicating that not everyone is guilty of everything or even anything. "a large number of people", "is rampant", "often done", "most hide it", "usually". It's almost like there is a pattern. A pattern I include very, very specifically because there is a fairly high percentage of people here who get triggered if they read anything that does not fit their opinion. Where did I say EVERYONE is guilty? I very explicitly say the opposite; that these are frequent problems in auction houses but not all. Where did I mention your pals at all, whatsoever?

As for registration requirements, I very explicitly said it is "more off-putting than difficult" and highlighted that it is easy, but yet another step, as wraps up near the end of the paragraph with the point that it has the most cons, takes more work, and costs more money than the other options. I find it a little silly and annoying, you don't, but the claim to fact seems to be agreed. There's not much to say beyond that.

Again, I am more than happy to give examples for any specific point I actually made, but not the ones you invented. My unedited, actual words are there to read.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by G1911

I posted that they are all the same as a group in my ranking, as in the ranking tiers replying to the point. I am not the first to group auction houses as a buying option in my ordered list. Are you upset at those other posters? Are you upset I did not list every trading partner as a separate item? Are you upset that I did not list out every dealer as a separate item? Why would I break out every single auction house as a separate item in the list? Nobody seems to be doing that.

Read what I wrote. Notice the frequent use of words obviously indicating that not everyone is guilty of everything or even anything. "a large number of people", "is rampant", "often done", "most hide it", "usually". It's almost like there is a pattern. A pattern I include very, very specifically because there is a fairly high percentage of people here who get triggered if they read anything that does not fit their opinion. Where did I say EVERYONE is guilty? I very explicitly say the opposite; that these are frequent problems in auction houses but not all. Where did I mention your pals at all, whatsoever?

As for registration requirements, I very explicitly said it is "more off-putting than difficult" and highlighted that it is easy, but yet another step, as wraps up near the end of the paragraph with the point that it has the most cons, takes more work, and costs more money than the other options. I find it a little silly and annoying, you don't, but the claim to fact seems to be agreed. There's not much to say beyond that.

Again, I am more than happy to give examples for any specific point I actually made, but not the ones you invented. My unedited, actual words are there to read.

No big deal. Your comment paints auction houses with a pretty broad negative brush and like I said in my previous post I don't disagree with you. Johnny630 asked you to be more specific and you declined which I thought was a bit of a cop out. Doesn't really matter, I just think some members here appreciate both positive and negative feedback when it comes to auction houses so they can be aware of which ones might not have their best interest at heart. I gave 3 examples of auction houses that I've had positive experiences with and two that I haven't, other members might have different opinions about them and that's okay too.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

No big deal. Your comment paints auction houses with a pretty broad negative brush and like I said in my previous post I don't disagree with you. Johnny630 asked you to be more specific and you declined which I thought was a bit of a cop out. Doesn't really matter, I just think some members here appreciate both positive and negative feedback when it comes to auction houses so they can be aware of which ones might not have their best interest at heart. I gave 3 examples of auction houses that I've had positive experiences with and two that I haven't, other members might have different opinions about them and that's okay too.

Agree G1911 brought up and made this statement,

Last - auction houses. A large number of people running respected auctions are the same people who have been involved in hobby frauds, horrible business practices, thefts, and staggering dishonesty

I’d like to know a little more specific about who and what actions he is talking about with AH’s. It seems like painting with a broad brush is not fair to me. Please be specific ?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Agree G1911 brought up and made this statement,

Last - auction houses. A large number of people running respected auctions are the same people who have been involved in hobby frauds, horrible business practices, thefts, and staggering dishonesty

I’d like to know a little more specific about who and what actions he is talking about with AH’s. It seems like painting with a broad brush is not fair to me. Please be specific ?

Thank you for identifying what statement you are inquiring into. That's something I can actually work with. Here's an example off the dome of each:

Hobby Frauds - PWCC; as famous as a fraud ring as they are a top auction house now.

Horrible business practices - How about Heritage openly allowing themselves to shill bid in their rules? My personal opinion is that is a horrible business practice that makes me not want to ever bid with them.

Thefts - Lifson - NYPL.

Staggering dishonesty - How about Ken Goldin and Score Board? Issuing redemptions for items they wouldn't deliver because of the bankruptcy, and then selling those items on TV. Have you ever seen less honest advertising than his pitches with Don West about these GREAT DEALS of junk they were trying to dump on fools? I'd call those embarrassingly extreme pitches staggeringly dishonest.

And for a bonus, doesn't Cohen have a federal fraud conviction on his record?

PWCC, Heritage, REA, Goldin, Memory Lane. What percentage of the auction house market do just these solitary examples constitute? Seems like a very large share, though as they aren't all public we don't know. I doubt any of this is news.

Highest prices, lowest convenience, and many of the biggest are people I do not want to do business with for the obvious reasons. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone; none of us are perfect but when I do business, I find it behooves me to do so with people who don't have fraud convictions, thefts, fraud rings, and staggering dishonesty in their histories. Seems strictly reasonable to me, as a buyer, looking out for my interest.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by G1911

Thank you for identifying what statement you are inquiring into. That's something I can actually work with. Here's an example off the dome of each:

Hobby Frauds - PWCC; as famous as a fraud ring as they are a top auction house now.

Horrible business practices - How about Heritage openly allowing themselves to shill bid in their rules? My personal opinion is that is a horrible business practice that makes me not want to ever bid with them.

Thefts - Lifson - NYPL.

Staggering dishonesty - How about Ken Goldin and Score Board? Issuing redemptions for items they wouldn't deliver because of the bankruptcy, and then selling those items on TV. Have you ever seen less honest advertising than his pitches with Don West about these GREAT DEALS of junk they were trying to dump on fools? I'd call those embarrassingly extreme pitches staggeringly dishonest.

And for a bonus, doesn't Cohen have a federal fraud conviction on his record?

PWCC, Heritage, REA, Goldin, Memory Lane. What percentage of the auction house market do just these solitary examples constitute? Seems like a very large share, though as they aren't all public we don't know. I doubt any of this is news.

Highest prices, lowest convenience, and many of the biggest are people I do not want to do business with for the obvious reasons. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone; none of us are perfect but when I do business, I find it behooves me to do so with people who don't have fraud convictions, thefts, fraud rings, and staggering dishonesty in their histories. Seems strictly reasonable to me, as a buyer, looking out for my interest.

Thank You! Who is Cohen?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Thank You! Who is Cohen?

Sorry - J.P.; Memory Lane's President.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

No big deal. Your comment paints auction houses with a pretty broad negative brush and like I said in my previous post I don't disagree with you. Johnny630 asked you to be more specific and you declined which I thought was a bit of a cop out. Doesn't really matter, I just think some members here appreciate both positive and negative feedback when it comes to auction houses so they can be aware of which ones might not have their best interest at heart. I gave 3 examples of auction houses that I've had positive experiences with and two that I haven't, other members might have different opinions about them and that's okay too.

For the third time, I am more than happy to dive into it. You still have not identified which statement you want examples of or disagree with. This is my third request for you to identify what you want me to dive into.

I am not going to address claims I simply did not make, which is what you have asked thus far. I do not see how a person can reasonably do that. I gave you a list highlighting the language that very, very clearly does NOT accuse 100% of guilt in each issue I raised. I have no idea how you are taking it as a directed attack at your 3 favorites, some of which are very minor players (and that is not intended as disrespect; simply market share).

[raulus]

It seems like there’s plenty of history out there with auction houses, and I haven’t really been around for long enough to really experience it, although you always wonder whether there are shenanigans that are just hidden, like shill bidding.

My own experience with auction houses has been positive, if expensive, with one exception, which has been well documented on this board, and doesn’t merit further comment.

I did learn from that experience that there are any number of supporters of auction houses, and seem very happy to defend their reputation and honor. I’m sure they will come around momentarily to comment on some of the above notations.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by raulus

I did learn from that experience that there are any number of supporters of auction houses, and seem very happy to defend their reputation and honor. I’m sure they will come around momentarily to comment on some of the above notations.

Well, I'll bet there won't be a discussion about the first paragraph and the joys of gifting cards and swapping with hobby pals

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

It seems like there’s plenty of history out there with auction houses, and I haven’t really been around for long enough to really experience it, although you always wonder whether there are shenanigans that are just hidden, like shill bidding.

My own experience with auction houses has been positive, if expensive, with one exception, which has been well documented on this board, and doesn’t merit further comment.

I did learn from that experience that there are any number of supporters of auction houses, and seem very happy to defend their reputation and honor. I’m sure they will come around momentarily to comment on some of the above notations.

My biggest concern, by far, about some auction houses is accepting consignments from known card doctors.