T206 Sweet Caporal Census Project

[Ronnie73]

8. Ames Hands Above Head (Print Group 3) does have a Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 back. They fall into the Scrap category. This scrap card is almost always found with missing colors and are usually black, brown, yellow and red.


NOT MY CARD

There are 57 cards that are in this same group. One group almost always has missing colors and the other group look like normal full color cards. The two lists are below.

29 Black, Brown, Yellow (And Sometimes Red) Scraps (tedzan's Group A)

Ames, Red (Hands Above Head)
Baker, Frank
Bender, Chief (No Trees)
Brown, Mordecai (Chicago On Shirt)
Davis, Harry (Davis On Front)
Donlin, Mike (With Bat)
Doolan, Mickey (Batting)
Dougherty, Patsy (Arm In Air)
Downey, Tom (Batting)
Doyle, Larry (With Bat)
Elberfeld, Kid (Fielding)
Griffith, Clark (Batting)
Johnson, Walter (Glove At Chest)
Joss, Addie (Hands At Chest)
Kleinow, Red (Boston - Catching)
Konetchy, Ed (Glove Near Ground)
Magee, Sherry (With Bat)
McIntyre, Harry (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy, Danny (Batting)
O'Leary, Charley (Hands On Knees)
Reulbach, Ed (No Glove Showing)
Rucker, Nap (Throwing)
Seymour, Cy (Throwing)
Snodgrass, Fred (Catching)
Stahl, Jake (Glove Shows)
Street, Gabby (Catching)
Sweeney, Jeff
Willis, Vic (Throwing)
Young, Cy (With Glove)

28 Full Color Scraps (tedzan's Group B)

Berger, Heinie
Bradley, Bill (With Bat)
Burch, Al (Fielding)
Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder)
Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing)
Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
Jordan, Tim (Batting)
Lajoie, Nap (With Bat)
Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
Leach, Tommy (Bending Over)
Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
Manning, Rube (Pitching)
McQuillan, George (With Bat)
Mullin, George (With Bat)
Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical)
Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder)
Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
White, Doc (Pitching)
Wilhelm, Kaiser (With Bat)
Willetts, Ed
Willis, Vic (Batting)
Wiltse, Hooks (Pitching)

[53toppscollector]

Thanks Ron, I knew of the no prints, but wasn't really counting them in this project because I have no way of tracking them accurately in terms of populations, and PSA/SGC do not include them in their pop reports (at least as far as I know)

[steve B]

Are the VCP numbers representing unique serial numbers? Or jut total sales?

If they're unique serial numbers, what immediately strikes me is the very high turnover percentage. Like on Arellanes, where PSA shows 40 factory 30s, and VCP shows 31 sales.

That's amazing, and makes me wonder if a visual census of nearly all the graded examples might be possible.
I've done some work on it with a known "rare" card, and it's very interesting. And I got nowhere near getting every copy.

[53toppscollector]

Originally Posted by steve B

Are the VCP numbers representing unique serial numbers? Or jut total sales?

If they're unique serial numbers, what immediately strikes me is the very high turnover percentage. Like on Arellanes, where PSA shows 40 factory 30s, and VCP shows 31 sales.

That's amazing, and makes me wonder if a visual census of nearly all the graded examples might be possible.
I've done some work on it with a known "rare" card, and it's very interesting. And I got nowhere near getting every copy.

I use the actual cert label number from PSA/SGC and have conditional formatting set so that if a duplicate label number appears, it does not get double counted. Here is an example of what my Excel file looks like



I only use the date column periodically so that if I accidentally close the window, I can get back to the last place I was without having to re-open 50 images to find my place.

I don't bother with the grade of the card, with the unique label number, I am able to weed out duplicates. Of course, if a card was originally in a T206 or T206 SweetCap holder and it was re-holdered into a factory specific slab, then I think the cert number changes. I expect those are very rare here, especially for the commons. The other benefit of using the cert number is that some of the very old scans available, say, from 2007 or 2008, may be too blurry to see the factory number, but I log the cert, and sometimes that card was re-sold years later, with a better scan, and I am able to identify it, which is oddly satisfying, lol.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

I use the actual cert label number from PSA/SGC and have conditional formatting set so that if a duplicate label number appears, it does not get double counted. Here is an example of what my Excel file looks like



I only use the date column periodically so that if I accidentally close the window, I can get back to the last place I was without having to re-open 50 images to find my place.

I don't bother with the grade of the card, with the unique label number, I am able to weed out duplicates. Of course, if a card was originally in a T206 or T206 SweetCap holder and it was re-holdered into a factory specific slab, then I think the cert number changes. I expect those are very rare here, especially for the commons. The other benefit of using the cert number is that some of the very old scans available, say, from 2007 or 2008, may be too blurry to see the factory number, but I log the cert, and sometimes that card was re-sold years later, with a better scan, and I am able to identify it, which is oddly satisfying, lol.

Hey James,

The Arellanes on your chart with the ??? on the back is a factory 25.

Arellanes.jpg

[53toppscollector]

Awesome! I will update it in my spreadsheet. Thanks for that.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

I use the actual cert label number from PSA/SGC and have conditional formatting set so that if a duplicate label number appears, it does not get double counted. Here is an example of what my Excel file looks like



I only use the date column periodically so that if I accidentally close the window, I can get back to the last place I was without having to re-open 50 images to find my place.

I don't bother with the grade of the card, with the unique label number, I am able to weed out duplicates. Of course, if a card was originally in a T206 or T206 SweetCap holder and it was re-holdered into a factory specific slab, then I think the cert number changes. I expect those are very rare here, especially for the commons. The other benefit of using the cert number is that some of the very old scans available, say, from 2007 or 2008, may be too blurry to see the factory number, but I log the cert, and sometimes that card was re-sold years later, with a better scan, and I am able to identify it, which is oddly satisfying, lol.

I actually like looking at this info just as much as the one's you have been posting. I like the Cert info on each card mostly. I did that with David Hall's collection.

[Rhotchkiss]

Another great example of how/why pop reports should be used as guides and not gospel. Here, we can use them to extrapolate relative scarcity compared to other series/factory numbers; not so great when comparing to an entirely different back.

What is abundantly clear, and a major (largely) overlooked fact about t206 backs, is that SC Factory 25s are much rarer than factory 30s. This is especially true in the 350 series

[frankbmd]

Quite a project, but perhaps paralysis by analysis.

I reminded of launch angles and exit speed velocities.

Babe Ruth hit a lot of home runs without them and not a single home run has been attributed to them that hasn't gone over the fence.

Good luck and carry on.

[53toppscollector]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Another great example of how/why pop reports should be used as guides and not gospel. Here, we can use them to extrapolate relative scarcity compared to other series/factory numbers; not so great when comparing to an entirely different back.

What is abundantly clear, and a major (largely) overlooked fact about t206 backs, is that SC Factory 25s are much rarer than factory 30s. This is especially true in the 350 series

The most interesting thing to me is that most of the T206 rules are not universal, and there are outliers. For example, I was just looking at two different 350 series cards in the PSA pop report and they have very different Fac 25/30 splits:

Byrne has (14) Fac 25s and (18) Fac 30s....not a big split.

Butler has (4) Fac 25s and (32) Fac 30s...a huge split

Other than this random huge gap in their Sweet Cap factory distribution, there is nothing else really distinguishing them. They have an almost identical total number of Sweet Caps, Byrne has none of the rare backs while Butler has only a BL350.

You are right, the majority of the Factory 25s are much more rare, but not in all cases. Which makes you wonder why. These oddities pop up everywhere, like the Tannehill above, the fact that the Exclusive 12 are so abundant in AB460 backs, while the rest of the AB460s are extremely difficult and low population.

The journey continues.

[fkm_bky]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

8. Ames Hands Above Head (Print Group 3) does have a Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 back. They fall into the Scrap category. This scrap card is almost always found with missing colors and are usually black, brown, yellow and red.


NOT MY CARD

There are 57 cards that are in this same group. One group almost always has missing colors and the other group look like normal full color cards. The two lists are below.

29 Black, Brown, Yellow (And Sometimes Red) Scraps (tedzan's Group A)

Ames, Red (Hands Above Head)
Baker, Frank
Bender, Chief (No Trees)
Brown, Mordecai (Chicago On Shirt)
Davis, Harry (Davis On Front)
Donlin, Mike (With Bat)
Doolan, Mickey (Batting)
Dougherty, Patsy (Arm In Air)
Downey, Tom (Batting)
Doyle, Larry (With Bat)
Elberfeld, Kid (Fielding)
Griffith, Clark (Batting)
Johnson, Walter (Glove At Chest)
Joss, Addie (Hands At Chest)
Kleinow, Red (Boston - Catching)
Konetchy, Ed (Glove Near Ground)
Magee, Sherry (With Bat)
McIntyre, Harry (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy, Danny (Batting)
O'Leary, Charley (Hands On Knees)
Reulbach, Ed (No Glove Showing)
Rucker, Nap (Throwing)
Seymour, Cy (Throwing)
Snodgrass, Fred (Catching)
Stahl, Jake (Glove Shows)
Street, Gabby (Catching)
Sweeney, Jeff
Willis, Vic (Throwing)
Young, Cy (With Glove)

28 Full Color Scraps (tedzan's Group B)

Berger, Heinie
Bradley, Bill (With Bat)
Burch, Al (Fielding)
Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder)
Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing)
Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
Jordan, Tim (Batting)
Lajoie, Nap (With Bat)
Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
Leach, Tommy (Bending Over)
Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
Manning, Rube (Pitching)
McQuillan, George (With Bat)
Mullin, George (With Bat)
Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical)
Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder)
Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
White, Doc (Pitching)
Wilhelm, Kaiser (With Bat)
Willetts, Ed
Willis, Vic (Batting)
Wiltse, Hooks (Pitching)

Here's another example not listed in the Full Color Group. This Herzog has every tell-tale sign that it was hand cut from a sheet.

Bill

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by fkm_bky

Here's another example not listed in the Full Color Group. This Herzog has every tell-tale sign that it was hand cut from a sheet.

Bill

Hi Bill, The two lists that I mentioned above were for cards that were never issued with the Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 back. Your card is still a scrap (hand cut) but is not as unique because the company issued that back for that card into packs. There was a large group of scrap cards that match your cards print group that were sold on eBay a few years ago. I bought around 12 of them but never mention them because they are not that special. Luke Lyon got a group of them too and listed them for sale a little over regular card price and he had them listed for a while. If they were missing a color pass or had a back that couldn't be found in tobacco packs, then things would be different. Thank you for sharing though.

[fkm_bky]

This is why I love this board! Thanks for the education on this, that makes sense to me now. Sorry for hi-jacking this thread a bit.

Bill

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Hi Bill, The two lists that I mentioned above were for cards that were never issued with the Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 back. Your card is still a scrap (hand cut) but is not as unique because the company issued that back for that card into packs. There was a large group of scrap cards that match your cards print group that were sold on eBay a few years ago. I bought around 12 of them but never mention them because they are not that special. Luke Lyon got a group of them too and listed them for sale a little over regular card price and he had them listed for a while. If they were missing a color pass or had a back that couldn't be found in tobacco packs, then things would be different. Thank you for sharing though.