1949 Leaf Theory

[yanks87]

thank you! I ordered up a copy!

[Pat R]

Hi Brian, could the possible third printing that you're talking about actually have been an initial printing that was a short print due to the Bowman lawsuit?

I know David has posted a couple of times that Lionel Carter wrote about someone that knew a young collector who had 33 previously unknown cards in the set.

In the January-February 1960 issue of Sport Fan, Carter had another column about 1949 Leaf baseball, announcing the discovery of 33 previously unknown cards

This is a May 4 1949 newspaper report of the court order and in the last paragraph it explicitly states names and pictures of 33 baseball players.

img214.jpg

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Brian, could the possible third printing that you're talking about actually have been an initial printing that was a short print due to the Bowman lawsuit?

I know David has posted a couple of times that Lionel Carter wrote about someone that knew a young collector who had 33 previously unknown cards in the set.

In the January-February 1960 issue of Sport Fan, Carter had another column about 1949 Leaf baseball, announcing the discovery of 33 previously unknown cards

This is a May 4 1949 newspaper report of the court order and in the last paragraph it explicitly states names and pictures of 33 baseball players.

Attachment 544385

I do think the lawsuit had something to do with the distribution of the cards, mainly the short prints. Dr. James Beckett as well have others have said that the cards are found predominately through the Great Lakes, which would fall in line with East coast distribution shut down because of the lawsuit. I think that the 2nd printing of the first 49 happened before the short print run. I think the order of the set distribution was:
_ Leaf Pirates
_ Leaf Baseball -First 49 Print/2nd Print (First 49, this is where the PINK color appears)/Short Print 49 Baseball
_ Leaf Football and Boxing

All the sets used skip numbering, and the color composition of the cards became simpler and simpler as time went on (no more green). With the Short Print baseball into boxing and football, the color went to strictly CMYK, no color mixing.

Still working to crack the code, but learning some very interesting things. Thanks for including this.

[yanks87]

Another piece of the puzzle is the Newhouser prototype, one of which sold in 2009 for $80k. It seems like a proof or prototype, but I do find it interesting that this is the only spot ORANGE is attempted.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by yanks87

I do think the lawsuit had something to do with the distribution of the cards, mainly the short prints. Dr. James Beckett as well have others have said that the cards are found predominately through the Great Lakes, which would fall in line with East coast distribution shut down because of the lawsuit. I think that the 2nd printing of the first 49 happened before the short print run. I think the order of the set distribution was:
_ Leaf Pirates
_ Leaf Baseball -First 49 Print/2nd Print (First 49, this is where the PINK color appears)/Short Print 49 Baseball
_ Leaf Football and Boxing

All the sets used skip numbering, and the color composition of the cards became simpler and simpler as time went on (no more green). With the Short Print baseball into boxing and football, the color went to strictly CMYK, no color mixing.

Still working to crack the code, but learning some very interesting things. Thanks for including this.

I just thought it was interesting that the newspaper article from 1949 and Lionel Carters writing from 1960 mention 33 cards and Ted's photo of the uncut sheet has 33 cards with a 1948 copyright date and 16 with a 1949 copyright date. Is it possible that they had a two 33 card sheets set up to print and maybe even printed some and then added 16 of the cards with the 49 copyright date to each sheet.

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I just thought it was interesting that the newspaper article from 1949 and Lionel Carters writing from 1960 mention 33 cards and Ted's photo of the uncut sheet has 33 cards with a 1948 copyright date and 16 with a 1949 copyright date. Is it possible that they had a two 33 card sheets set up to print and maybe even printed some and then added 16 of the cards with the 49 copyright date to each sheet.

Interesting, I will have to look into that further, it may explain a couple of things, or it may just be a coincidence. Johnny Mize and Warren Spahn were at the top of the list of players that filed suit, it was settled outside of court, and Leaf agreed to stay out of the market until 1951. The cost to license players likeness in those day was around $5, and Bowman hand contracted many, so the suit makes sense. I will look further into the copyrights, and see if it coincides with the cards that actually changed. That would be a fascinating wrinkle.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by yanks87

Interesting, I will have to look into that further, it may explain a couple of things, or it may just be a coincidence. Johnny Mize and Warren Spahn were at the top of the list of players that filed suit, it was settled outside of court, and Leaf agreed to stay out of the market until 1951. The cost to license players likeness in those day was around $5, and Bowman hand contracted many, so the suit makes sense. I will look further into the copyrights, and see if it coincides with the cards that actually changed. That would be a fascinating wrinkle.

Brian, do you know when they settled outside of court, it must have been quite awhile after Bowman sought the court order.

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Brian, do you know when they settled outside of court, it must have been quite awhile after Bowman sought the court order.

I don't, but it is fairly short runway, the cards hit in '49 and they settled on not producing cards again until '51, so I would imagine it was a quick proceeding. Honestly, Sol Leaf had run into a copyright infringement suit on the Overland side, so a quick settlement may have been the result of not wanting to get "into it" on the east coast with Bowman and the players that brought the suit.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by yanks87

I do think the lawsuit had something to do with the distribution of the cards, mainly the short prints. Dr. James Beckett as well have others have said that the cards are found predominately through the Great Lakes, which would fall in line with East coast distribution shut down because of the lawsuit. I think that the 2nd printing of the first 49 happened before the short print run. I think the order of the set distribution was:
_ Leaf Pirates
_ Leaf Baseball -First 49 Print/2nd Print (First 49, this is where the PINK color appears)/Short Print 49 Baseball
_ Leaf Football and Boxing

All the sets used skip numbering, and the color composition of the cards became simpler and simpler as time went on (no more green). With the Short Print baseball into boxing and football, the color went to strictly CMYK, no color mixing.

Still working to crack the code, but learning some very interesting things. Thanks for including this.

Doesn't this make the Leaf cards a regional issue like the Bond and Swell sets that predated the leaf cards? No southern or Western distribution. Barely an east coast distribution.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

Doesn't this make the Leaf cards a regional issue like the Bond and Swell sets that predated the leaf cards? No southern or Western distribution. Barely an east coast distribution.

The Leaf premiums I found were in a scrapbook put together in Minneapolis.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

The Leaf premiums I found were in a scrapbook put together in Minneapolis.

Hi Dan

Thanks for posting the Minneapolis venue.

My conversations with many old-time 1949 LEAF collectors (like me) over the years verifies that these cards
were distributed throughout the U.S. east of the Mississippi River including Northern and Southern states.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Dan

Thanks for posting the Minneapolis venue.

My conversations with many old-time 1949 LEAF collectors (like me) over the years verifies that these cards
were distributed throughout the U.S. east of the Mississippi River including Northern and Southern states.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I wish I knew where I put the scrapbook, I'd go back and see if I can find dates on the articles in the pages closest to the premiums, it might narrow down when this kid got the premiums. When I do find it I'll be sure to add that info to this thread.

[tedzan]

Hi Brian K

Hopefully, you have read my 8-page article in the OLD CARDBOARD Magazine regarding the 1949 LEAF. If you have any questions, feel free to email me.... tedzan11@comcast.net

Also, check-out this 1949 LEAF BB thread (May 2016)......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=1949+LEAF

Originally Posted by tedzan

Most set collectors consider this set to be the toughest to complete of all the major post-war issues. I've posted this thread here in the pre-war section since this set
comprises of BB stars that played in every decade from 1897 to 1948.

There are 98 different subjects in this set (20 of them HOFers). These cards were issued in 2 series of 49 cards each. The first series was available very early in the
Spring of 1949. The 2nd (short-printed) series was very limited in its distribution during the Summer of 1949. These 49 cards were available only in four regions of
the country (Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, and Eastern Massachusetts).

Anyhow, I have quite a sentimental attachment to these cards, since they were my very first colorized BB cards that I collected when I was a 10-year kid.

I'll start this show with some of my favorites in my set. Looking forward to seeing your 1949 Leaf cards.




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TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Brian K

Hopefully, you have read my 8-page article in the OLD CARDBOARD Magazine regarding the 1949 LEAF. If you have any questions, feel free to email me.... tedzan11@comcast.net

Also, check-out this 1949 LEAF BB thread (May 2016)......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=1949+LEAF

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted-
I bought the issue and read the article. Your first hand memories of purchasing the cards in 1949 is fantastic. I am working on the company history right now and putting together the theory of where the cards were printed and if that accounts for all the variations and "non-professional" printing errors. I think hands down, the Leaf QC department was not all there, and I would attribute it to the fact that I believe the cards were printed in house. During my research of the company, looking for access to an archive, (including talking to the current CEO of Leaf, who is a great nephew once removed from Sol Leaf, or something like that), I found that Leaf Brands, as it appears on the Copyright on the back of the cards was actually formed in 1947. Sol Leaf consolidated his other candy companies into one, including Overland Candy. If that sounds familiar, they produced a candy wrapper baseball card from 1938-42. I also checked copyrights from 1948 and 1949, and Leaf is not documented as having a Copyright that coincides with the one on the back of the cards. (If there are any lawyers reading this, I would love an explanation on how/why this might be).

The Overland connection provides and interesting connection to the cards. I found a box of WHOPPERS from 1947, the stock looks VERY similar to that of the cards. So if the cards weren't printed in house, whoever was printing the packing for Leaf products, I think used the same commercial lithography presses to make the cards.

That's the quick overview of where I am at, the story is getting more and more interesting, the 2nd printing is a real thing, if you look at your cards and the hats are a different color than the rest you see out there, you have a second printing. Now the trick is to see if there was a third printing, or a second printing of the short prints. I'm far from an answer, but planning to chase down some theories this spring in Chicago. Thanks again for all of your help and opinions.

[tedzan]

Brian

People get carried too far away with the COPYRIGHT dates. They simply tell us when the player's Biographies were created.

LEAF first produced their PIRATE set in 1948 (Pirate movies were very popular in the 1940's). I clearly remember acquiring many of these colorful cards during
the Summer of 1948.

In early Fall of 1948, LEAF issued their 50 card* set of BOXERS. This set was so popular, that LEAF continued into 1949 printing up more of these BOXER cards
in the beginning of 1949.

In the Fall of 1948, LEAF issued their FOOTBALL set of 98 cards.....in 2 series of 49 cards each.

Then in early Spring of 1949, LEAF issued their 1st series of BB cards. These cards preceded the 1949 BOWMAN cards by a month (or two) in my neighborhood.
Their 2nd series (49 cards) of cards were issued during the Summer of 1949 (in limited regions of the US).

In the Fall of 1949, LEAF issued their FOOTBALL set of 49 cards


* Note....card #50, Rocky Graziano, was removed (he did not like his image).


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Brian

People get carried too far away with the COPYRIGHT dates. They simply tell us when the player's Biographies were created.

LEAF first produced their PIRATE set in 1948 (Pirate movies were very popular in the 1940's). I clearly remember acquiring many of these colorful cards during
the Summer of 1948.

In early Fall of 1948, LEAF issued their 50 card* set of BOXERS. This set was so popular, that LEAF continued into 1949 printing up more of these BOXER cards
in the beginning of 1949.

In the Fall of 1948, LEAF issued their FOOTBALL set of 98 cards.....in 2 series of 49 cards each.

Then in early Spring of 1949, LEAF issued their 1st series of BB cards. These cards preceded the 1949 BOWMAN cards by a month (or two) in my neighborhood.
Their 2nd series (49 cards) of cards were issued during the Summer of 1949 (in limited regions of the US).

In the Fall of 1949, LEAF issued their FOOTBALL set of 49 cards


* Note....card #50, Rocky Graziano, was removed (he did not like his image).


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Fantastic, thank you Ted. Thank you for sharing first hand knowledge of when all the series hit. I will update my notes accordingly.

Did you ever get any of the premiums? The pirate ring or the large format cards at the bottom of the baseball boxes?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by yanks87

Fantastic, thank you Ted. Thank you for sharing first hand knowledge of when all the series hit. I will update my notes accordingly.

Did you ever get any of the premiums?

The pirate ring or the large format cards at the bottom of the baseball boxes?

Brian

I am guessing you are a Yankees fan ?
If so, you will appreciate this...when I was growing up, our home in Hillside, NJ was just 2 short blocks away from Phil Rizzuto's home. Phil was a really
great neighbor. I could devote several pages of stories regarding him. I knew Phil for many years.


Speaking about 1949 LEAF Premiums, here are some of mine......
Check-this-out, here are 2 graded examples which confirm that PSA and SGC do NOT understand the LEAF BB cards with respect to their "issued date".
These PREMIUMS were included in the same wax-pack boxes that the 1949 cards were in. And indeed, they are correctly identified with the 1949 date.
Yet, the individual 98 (and their variations) BB cards that are graded by PSA and SGC are INCORRECTLY identified as 1948, or 1948-1949 issue dates.


NOTE ----------------v 1949 v-----------------------------------------------------------------------------v 1949 v






TED Z

T206 Reference
.