Convince me otherwise...

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

Why stop at Orel? I'd say Ron Guidry was better than Morris too.

Not only did Guidry win a Cy Young, which Morris never did, his 47.8 career WAR in 14 seasons is clearly better than Morris' 43.5 in 18 seasons.

Guidry and Hershiser were obviously much better then Morris at their best. They both suffered from being relatively late bloomers and had arm problems in their 30's. Orel had a longer career, but was relatively mediocre in the second half of it (aside from a nice postseason run with Cleveland), while Guidry pretty much petered out after an excellent age 34 season.

Along with the counting stats, Morris had several ups and downs and career arcs that people tend to remember better for some reason. He was an important part of 3 different organizations that won World Series titles, that are not necessarily noted for their post season dominance.

He performed poorly in the postseason his last time around with the Blue Jays in '92, but he did eat a lot of innings and win 21 games for that team, to help get them there in the first place.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I hear the Postseason argument all the time for Morris, when actually he was, in total, almost the exact same pitcher he was in the regular season. He had 2 great post seasons and 3 lousy ones. Hershiser on the other hand, was much better than his regular season numbers in the post season. I don't believe much in "clutch" but if I did I'd have to say Hershiser was significantly more clutch than Morris. Hell, against Oakland in 1988 he went 3 for 3 with 2 doubles! He won 2 League Championship MVP's and one WS MVP.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I hear the Postseason argument all the time for Morris, when actually he was, in total, almost the exact same pitcher he was in the regular season. He had 2 great post seasons and 3 lousy ones. Hershiser on the other hand, was much better than his regular season numbers in the post season. I don't believe much in "clutch" but if I did I'd have to say Hershiser was significantly more clutch than Morris. Hell, against Oakland in 1988 he went 3 for 3 with 2 doubles! He won 2 League Championship MVP's and one WS MVP.

At one point Morris was 7-1 with a much lower ERA then he finished with in the post season. That was capped by a 10 inning Game 7, 1-0 Shutout in the Metrodome, against the favored Braves in the 1991 World Series.

Most people throw out what happened to him the following year when he was pitching for the Blue Jays. It was also largely forgivable because the Blue Jays won it all anyways. That staff was led by another mostly forgotten pitcher with a higher career WAR, lower ERA, higher Win%, lower WHIP and higher ERA+ then Jack Morris... in Jimmy Key.

Key didn't even get 1% on the HOF ballot, the 1st year he was eligible.

[packs]

Tim Hudson is another guy who I think was a very good pitcher who never got his due. The guy won 89 more games than he lost and put up a career 3.49 ERA during an extremely hitter friendly period of major league baseball. His WAR of 57.9 and ERA + of 120 are way ahead of Morris too.

According to Baseball Reference Tim Hudson is statistically the 72nd best starting pitcher of all time compared to Morris at 164.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

Tim Hudson is another guy who I think was a very good pitcher who never got his due. The guy won 89 more games than he lost and put up a career 3.49 ERA during an extremely hitter friendly period of major league baseball. His WAR of 57.9 and ERA + of 120 are way ahead of Morris too.

According to Baseball Reference Tim Hudson is statistically the 72nd best starting pitcher of all time compared to Morris at 164.

I mean, check David Cone. He's ranked 48th according to BBR, Has 5 World Series Titles, a Cy Young Award (5 top 6 finishes), a Perfect Game, 8-3 in the Postseason.

Never got past the 1st year of eligibility.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I mean, check David Cone. He's ranked 48th according to BBR, Has 5 World Series Titles, a Cy Young Award (5 top 6 finishes), a Perfect Game, 8-3 in the Postseason.

Never got past the 1st year of eligibility.

Sheesh. Cone was better than I remember and I remember him being really darn good. Cool delivery too.

[JustinD]

I would disagree as Hershiser's noise was made from 84' to 89' and then somewhat averagish after. He never really turned it back after the 90' season to his prior skillset. Without the shoulder injury, I would say it would be likely he would have a member of the hall.

Morris, while a completely different pitcher due to what Sparky wanted, had a far more complete career with not a 6 year arc, but far more accomplishments over time and was even grabbing CYA and MVP votes in 92 with 21 wins 16 years in. There are many short burst stories in the history of MLB, avoiding injury and a long career is hard. They both played 18 years, but Jack faced more than 3k more batters and 650+ innings and still has a fractionally better w-l. Those stinkers in 89 and 93 kill his W-l also.

That said, Orel's career was still pretty darn good and either argument is sound. I just think the injuries ruin the argument for Orel.

[packs]

I don't know. My issue with the Morris mystique is that although he did pitch very well in 2 of the 3 World Series he played in (you can't discount a guy who wins 2 games in a World Series no matter who he is) I don't believe he was the best pitcher on any of the teams.

I'd say Dan Petry was the best pitcher on the 84 Tigers team and that both Tapani and Erickson were far better than Morris on the 91 Twins team. I find it hard to reconcile a guy's HOF status when he wasn't the best pitcher on the team.