new low for the ebay authenticity thing

[Peter_Spaeth]

BTW, suppose PSA decides a slab is fake. What then? What does it do with the slab?

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

BTW, suppose PSA decides a slab is fake. What then? What does it do with the slab?

Or suppose PSA decides a fake slab is real?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Or suppose PSA decides a fake slab is real?

As I have posted, I believe that happened with an expensive (30k at the time, much more now) card that the evidence (including another card with the identical cert, and sale in the same auction as a documented fake) suggested was fake.

[jayshum]

From the eBay FAQs about the authentication process:

What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item’s authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. For PSA-graded cards specifically, if a plastic sealed holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, PSA will deactivate its certificate and issue a notice to the seller.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

From the eBay FAQs about the authentication process:

What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item’s authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. For PSA-graded cards specifically, if a plastic sealed holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, PSA will deactivate its certificate and issue a notice to the seller.

Does the seller still get the slab back?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does the seller still get the slab back?

I don't see an answer to that question in the FAQs, but I thought if a raw card failed authentication it was sent back to the seller so I would guess the same would happen with a graded card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

From the eBay FAQs about the authentication process:

What if the item does not pass inspection?
If the authenticator cannot verify the item’s authenticity or if the item is not consistent with its listing, you will be issued a full refund to your original payment method. For PSA-graded cards specifically, if a plastic sealed holder is found to be fake or exhibit signs of tampering, PSA will deactivate its certificate and issue a notice to the seller.

Presumably fake flips take their number from real flips, that's part of how they fool people. At least that is how the Mexican fraud worked. So if PSA deactivates the cert from a fake flip, that means the owner of the real card now has a deactivated cert? What am I missing?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Presumably fake flips take their number from real flips, that's part of how they fool people. At least that is how the Mexican fraud worked. So if PSA deactivates the cert from a fake flip, that means the owner of the real card now has a deactivated cert? What am I missing?

Great point and question. Here's possibly another.

If under the program a graded card gets sent to a TPG to verify that the card holder is real and hasn't been tampered with, what happens if in sending the card to the designated TPG the holder somehow gets damaged in transit? Or what if it gets damaged in the hands of the people at the designated TPG? Could it be possible for that card to be 100% legit and real, but now because of third-party damage to the holder that some examiner deems the damaged holder as tampered with, and therefore puts the legitimacy of the card itself into question?

Which leads back to Peter's and other's other question, what happens to the card itself in such an instance when the holder is considered fake or tampered with? Does it get returned to the seller, but now in damaged form? Since at the end of the day, whatever TPG is hired to review these holders is still only technically giving their opinion, I doubt they could ever claim the cards are truly fake or tampered with, and as a result confiscate them and not send them back to the seller. To my thinking, such an action would go beyond the mere rendering of an opinion, and confiscation of cards would put actual liability in the lap of the TPG and/or online seller, which they most certainly do not ever want if they can help it.

We all know it is not a question of if, but when, something like that finally happens. And at that point I can see a very upset seller getting everyone else all just pointing fingers at each other, and no one taking any responsibility for the whole issue, leaving the seller stuck.

The other part of this I've never understood is how you can pick one TPG group/company to be in charge of reviewing encapsulated cards and holders of other TPGs as well. Exactly how did those designated examiners suddenly become experts in the card holders of every other TPG? What training did they receive and/or school did they attend to gain such knowledge and expertise?

Also, one would think that there should be a sense of independence to this process as well. I can see hiring a TPG to look at raw cards being sold on an online platform as there is no independence question or issue in that case. But in hiring one specific TPG to examine and review card holders of cards they graded and issued, along with graded card holders of all other TPG graded cards, that can raise a bit of an independence issue and question in my mind.

The transparency in this entire program, quite frankly, stinks. Otherwise, people wouldn't have to be bringing up such questions, at least not so long after such a program was initiated and originally put into place.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by BobC

Great point and question. Here's possibly another.

If under the program a graded card gets sent to a TPG to verify that the card holder is real and hasn't been tampered with, what happens if in sending the card to the designated TPG the holder somehow gets damaged in transit? Or what if it gets damaged in the hands of the people at the designated TPG? Could it be possible for that card to be 100% legit and real, but now because of third-party damage to the holder that some examiner deems the damaged holder as tampered with, and therefore puts the legitimacy of the card itself into question?

Which leads back to Peter's and other's other question, what happens to the card itself in such an instance when the holder is considered fake or tampered with? Does it get returned to the seller, but now in damaged form?

We all know it is not a question of if, but when, something like that finally happens. And at that point I can see a very upset seller getting everyone else all just pointing fingers at each other, and no one taking any responsibility for the whole issue, leaving the seller stuck.

The other part of this I've never understood is how you can pick one TPG group/company to be in charge of reviewing encapsulated cards and holders of other TPGs as well. Exactly how did those designated examiners suddenly become experts in the card holders of every other TPG? What training did they receive and/or school did they attend to gain such knowledge and expertise?

Also, one would think that there should be a sense of independence to this process as well. I can see hiring a TPG to look at raw cards being sold on an online platform as there is no independence question or issue in that case. But in hiring one specific TPG to examine and review card holders of cards they graded and issued, along with graded card holders of all other TPG graded cards, that can raise a bit of an independence issue and question in my mind.

The transparency in this entire program, quite frankly, stinks. Otherwise, people wouldn't have to be bringing up such questions, at least not so long after such a program was initiated and originally put into place.

There seem to be plenty of people on this board who think they can identify a fake slab from any company just from seeing online pictures so I don't think it's impossible to think that someone working for one of the grading companies couldn't learn how to identify them with the item in hand.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jayshum

There seem to be plenty of people on this board who think they can identify a fake slab from any company just from seeing online pictures so I don't think it's impossible to think that someone working for one of the grading companies couldn't learn how to identify them with the item in hand.

Jay,

Don't disagree at all, but I'm also including the idea of damaged slabs in this. If a slab gets damaged somehow, could someone then not question that maybe it wasn't a fake slab, but possibly a real slab that somehow got opened and had a card swapped out of it for another, and then resealed? I know the chances of that are probably minimal at best, but there's still a chance, right? Who knows, a mail carrier, or even someone at the TPG, could accidently drop/step on/crush a package or envelope holding an encapsulated card, and damage the holder. How many times here on the forum have you seen people warning others about buying cards where they detect something in the edges of the holder that look like it may have been tampered with. Cloudiness in the plastic, or whatever. Also, over the years, the TPGs all seem to have made changes and updates to their holders at one time or another. I'm assuming like you, and many others on this forum, I've probably got at least one example of each iteration of all the different holders each TPG has put out over their many years of operation, including some from TPGs no longer around. But do I know all the specific and unique differences between the holders and each TPG's different iterations, or the makeup and specific qualities of the plastic formula used in each of them so I could tell you exactly how the plastic in those holders would react and look if dropped/damaged.......NO! And probably like everyone else, I'm not about to go intentionally dropping or trying to open them without breaking the holders, just to see how they would react and what they would look like if I had accidently done so. So unless someone is a true plastics expert, and also knowledgeable in the specific ways these various TPG holders and their various iterations over all the years are sealed, and all the different ways the plastics used will react and look when and if damaged or tampered with, I'm not so sure it is that simple to find a true expert that can really tell if ALL the holders they are looking at are really tampered with or not.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by BobC

Great point and question. Here's possibly another.

If under the program a graded card gets sent to a TPG to verify that the card holder is real and hasn't been tampered with, what happens if in sending the card to the designated TPG the holder somehow gets damaged in transit? Or what if it gets damaged in the hands of the people at the designated TPG? Could it be possible for that card to be 100% legit and real, but now because of third-party damage to the holder that some examiner deems the damaged holder as tampered with, and therefore puts the legitimacy of the card itself into question?

Which leads back to Peter's and other's other question, what happens to the card itself in such an instance when the holder is considered fake or tampered with? Does it get returned to the seller, but now in damaged form? Since at the end of the day, whatever TPG is hired to review these holders is still only technically giving their opinion, I doubt they could ever claim the cards are truly fake or tampered with, and as a result confiscate them and not send them back to the seller. To my thinking, such an action would go beyond the mere rendering of an opinion, and confiscation of cards would put actual liability in the lap of the TPG and/or online seller, which they most certainly do not ever want if they can help it.

We all know it is not a question of if, but when, something like that finally happens. And at that point I can see a very upset seller getting everyone else all just pointing fingers at each other, and no one taking any responsibility for the whole issue, leaving the seller stuck.

The other part of this I've never understood is how you can pick one TPG group/company to be in charge of reviewing encapsulated cards and holders of other TPGs as well. Exactly how did those designated examiners suddenly become experts in the card holders of every other TPG? What training did they receive and/or school did they attend to gain such knowledge and expertise?

Also, one would think that there should be a sense of independence to this process as well. I can see hiring a TPG to look at raw cards being sold on an online platform as there is no independence question or issue in that case. But in hiring one specific TPG to examine and review card holders of cards they graded and issued, along with graded card holders of all other TPG graded cards, that can raise a bit of an independence issue and question in my mind.

The transparency in this entire program, quite frankly, stinks. Otherwise, people wouldn't have to be bringing up such questions, at least not so long after such a program was initiated and originally put into place.

Bob your conclusion is not valid. It is a long-standing tradition on Net54 to complain about anything new, whether it makes sense or not.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Bob your conclusion is not valid. It is a long-standing tradition on Net54 to complain about anything new, whether it makes sense or not.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

LOL that is funny and the correct answer to all the silly excuses on why it is bad for eBay to try and help people from getting scammed on their site.

I noticed many of the complainers about this program also complain about fraud in the hobby.

Those that complained about all the altered cards in PSA slabs in the PWCC threads mainly collect PSA graded cards.

If all else fails it is a fun thread to read.

[Exhibitman]

Maybe the solution is to allow eBay purchasers to create a 'safe list' of sellers who do not need to send their slabs to PSA for review? I know I would (and have) trusted Scottsdale baseball Cards (Brian Marcy) with some of the most expensive purchases I've made. Why can't I safe list his stuff?

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you people think this is going to do much of anything to stop fraud, more power to you. Then again, I guess there are people who feel better with a fox guarding their henhouse, after all it needed to be guarded.

Again, I like the idea for raw cards.