Ryan and run support

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by steve B

Possibly.

One thing that I don't like about modern stats is that while slightly better than the traditional ones, they have difficulty accounting for pitching types, (Or batting types)
Ryan was very much a power pitcher, and was as many were a bit wild at times.
Palmer seemed to have more control, and with his infield just keeping the ball down would make a big difference.
B.Robinson, Belanger, and Grich compared to Al Gallagher, Rudy Meloi, and Sandy Alomar. That could be the difference right there.

A slightly wild pitcher that pretty much has to keep the ball out of play will always suffer under WHIP in comparison to one who can rely more on his team.
I will totally grant that in 73 Palmer was the more complete pitcher.

Both seasons were great ones, part of the fun of baseball is debating just how great.

Palmer certainly did benefit from pitching in front of one the best defensive teams in history.

Thst being said, walks have to be factored in because those baserunners count too when if they score. Palmer had his career high in walks that season (113) and still had a lower WHIP.

[brian1961]

You know, so many collectors and statisticians think because of this number, that number, this percentage, and the ninth split hair, this guy should be worth more money, or should have won this or that award.

I turned nineteen in 1973, and when I wasn't long distance running, or thinking about girls, I occasionally watched to see what was going on in baseball. I never heard Jim Palmer's name mentioned that year. On the other hand, I frequently heard Nolan Ryan's name mentioned. He seemed to be capturing the imagination of all of baseball. People, fans love underdogs. They admire them. They root for them. My dear Mom was that way, and so I became that way, too.

Nolan Ryan DOMIMATED baseball in those years. His sourpuss critics whined he walked too much, in the same way Babe Ruth and later Mickey Mantle were said to strike out too much.

I think he should have won the Cy Young award in 1973. Maybe the Angels weren't a last place club; they may as well have been. To achieve what Nolan did IN SPITE OF ..... raunchy run support, was a sight to behold.

Years earlier, somehow Dean Chance was able to put an amazing year together in spite of lousy run support from his Angel teammates(five 1-0 wins!).

Nolan Ryan made a career out of pitching amazing games with low run support. In fact, Major League Baseball ought to retire the Cy Young Award and make it the Nolan Ryan Award! The Cyclone won 511 games. Nolan won over America and struck out a million batters! Of course, I over-exaggerated a little, but even when he lost, people just loved seeing him pitch. The batters? Well, I liked what Dale Murphy said---that Nolan was the one pitcher you started to think about TWO DAYS BEFORE YOU HAD TO FACE HIM. That's what I call fear, and respect.

I will conclude with a story. Back in the early 90s, when I was living in northern Indiana, I met a young teen at church. We were talking about baseball cards, and he told me he wanted to show me his most cherished card. It turned out to be a 1975 Topps Mini Nolan Ryan. That's one beautiful card, guys. Well, I oohed and ahhed over it; I didn't have that one.

So, it just goes to show what a young collector prized back then. It wasn't Palmer, Brooksie or Frank, Pete, Oh Henry, the original Reggie bar, or even Charlie Hustle, Dale Murphy, Wade Boggs, Don Mattingly, or Rotten Barry Bogus Bonds. No sir, it was Nolan Ryan! Long live his fame--award or no award. Nolan Ryan won something much, much harder----the love and respect of fans everywhere, and the love and respect of his wife and children.

After all that, he went out in style: got a pitch a little too close to Robin Ventura, and THE RYAN EXPRESS proceeded to put the bully in a headlock and punch his lights out. Way da go, Nolan----YOU ROCK!

After all this, I think I'll go and buy a Nolan Ryan baseball card!

--- Brian Powell

[cardsagain74]

Ryan's teams were above .500 for his career. The main reason he didn't accomplish more was not his run support; it was his lifetime 3.73 ERA on the road (in an era of modest offense, no less).

When he wasn't in his usual pitcher-friendly home parks (except for those late years in Texas), he gave up too many runs to be considered elite.

Pointing that out is not being a sourpuss. It's just noticing the facts. And making an equal comparison to Ruth or Mantle critics is even further from reality.

[Jim65]

Blaming Nolan's losses on just lack of run support only is just not fair, Ryan had way more Wild Pitches, allowed way more stolen bases and was utterly terrible at fielding his position. Not too mention almost 1000 walks more than every other pitcher.

SABR did a study of every pitcher since 1950 and run support and the biggest hard luck pitcher was Greg Maddux but we don't hear Maddux fans using that as an excuse for why he didn't win more games.

[Touch'EmAll]

When I originally posted Ryan had 5 games he lost that were decided by 1 run - that included all the good pitches, all the bad pitches, all the walks, all the wild pitches, all his fielding errors, all the stolen bases against him... all of it.

In fact, if anything, my calculation based on one run games favors Palmer more because the differential was actually more than 1 run - 4.79 runs vs. 3.56 runs - differential of 1.23 runs.

There may never have been a player with such disparity of opinion. Some folks think Ryan was a scrub, not even the best pitcher on his own team, barely worthy of Hall of Fame consideration, etc. Then you get folks who put him into the "Legendary" status, most dominant, owner of strikeout and no-hit records that may never fall, was the Million Dollar man.

So why does the public at large value Ryan's baseball card prices more than any other contemporary pitcher? Why does Ryan get the special documentary instead of Don Sutton, or Gaylord Perry, or Steve Carlton? Why do the Astros sign Ryan to a Million Dollars?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

When I originally posted Ryan had 5 games he lost that were decided by 1 run - that included all the good pitches, all the bad pitches, all the walks, all the wild pitches, all his fielding errors, all the stolen bases against him... all of it.

In fact, if anything, my calculation based on one run games favors Palmer more because the differential was actually more than 1 run - 4.79 runs vs. 3.56 runs - differential of 1.23 runs.

There may never have been a player with such disparity of opinion. Some folks think Ryan was a scrub, not even the best pitcher on his own team, barely worthy of Hall of Fame consideration, etc. Then you get folks who put him into the "Legendary" status, most dominant, owner of strikeout and no-hit records that may never fall, was the Million Dollar man.

So why does the public at large value Ryan's baseball card prices more than any other contemporary pitcher? Why does Ryan get the special documentary instead of Don Sutton, or Gaylord Perry, or Steve Carlton? Why do the Astros sign Ryan to a Million Dollars?

No one thinks Ryan was a scrub. Ryan is a first ballot HOFer and deservedly so. Some fans think he's a top 5 or 10 all-time pitcher, which he isn't. When some fans point out Ryan's faults, Ryan's fans take it as a personal insult. Saying he walked too many batters or should've won more games if he learned to pitch earlier in his career instead trying to blow every batter away, does not mean we are saying he's a scrub.

There is a huge fascination with Ryan and he has many diehard fans, thats why he gets a special documentary. Do you think getting a documentary makes him better than Steve Carlton?

I have no negative feelings about Nolan Ryan, I just do not believe he is an all-time great, thats not an insult.

[G1911]

Ryan was 12% better than the league average at his job: not giving up runs. He did this over 27 years. That is a phenomenal success, and I think he very much deserves his plaque.

I love baseball and it’s history. But I don’t understand the emotional connection that some people form with specific players, who are offended and indignant when math is used to evaluate their beloved. It is not insulting to Ryan to rank him by his statistical performance instead of his fame. Ryan and Koufax, off the top, are the only pitchers for which this seems to be a widespread belief.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by G1911

Ryan was 12% better than the league average at his job: not giving up runs. He did this over 27 years. That is a phenomenal success,

I have to disagree with the word phenomenal. Ryans ERA+ of 112 is #302 all-time.