Under appreciated Hall of Famers

[skelly423]

It is a pretty common theme on this board that Stan Musial, Frank Robinson, Tris Speaker, Eddie Collins, etc are undervalued relative to their on-field accomplishments. Plenty of people collect these players with the hope/expectation that prices will eventually catch up to their on field accomplishments. As much as I understand the sentiment, I am skeptical the prices will ever jump substantially.

Can anyone think of a Hall of Fame player who was once under appreciated, saw a big jump in prices, and is no longer considered undervalued by the hobby?

[cgjackson222]

Jackie Robinson. He still may be underappreciated for on-field contributions, but his prices are in the stratosphere, surpassing almost all of his contemporaries with the exception of Mantle, and maybe Mays.

Five years ago, his '48 Leaf in PSA 7 was a $15K card. Now it is 10x that.

Similarly, his '47-'66 Exhibits card in PSA 5 sold for ~$50 5 years ago, and now goes for almost 10x that.

[rats60]

Roberto Clemente, Sandy Koufax and Satchel Paige as well as Jackie Robinson.

From age 28 to 37 Jackie Robinson had 63.8 WAR. From age 28 to 37 Roberto Clemente had 70.1 WAR.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think Mays and Aaron have gained in stature over the years.

[Casey2296]

Sam Crawford & Napoleon Lajoie.

[Bigdaddy]

Rick Ferrell cards have been fire lately.

[Jason19th]

I would argue that the answer to the op question is no. I cannot think of a single HoFer who has become appreciated later on. The only possible exception is Larry Doby who has increased a bit over the last ten years and may jump up if he ever gets his due celebration for integrating the American League. You could also argue that Dihigo has seen a jump but I thinks that just do to the later “discovery” of his cards
I just don’t see any likely players for the jump. I would argue that part of the problem is that the game is played so differently now and it’s harder and harder to compare stats

[G1911]

I cannot think of any real example of where a HOF player was actively underrated and their prices then rose to the level of their statistical play.

Guys who have risen tend to rise with the market. Much has been made of Mays pricing lately, but before his rise he was already the number 2 or 3 non-rookie player in all his sets. Sure, he should be #1 instead of #2 statistically but it’s difficult to call that underrated.

Players either get popular or they don’t, objective statistics rarely dethrone the overrated or elevate the underrated in a popularity contest.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think Mays and Aaron have gained in stature over the years.

+1

I think overall, left handed HOF pitchers in general (with the exception of maybe Koufax) don’t get the hobby love they deserve. Spahn, Carlton, Hubbell, Grove, Ford, etc. were the best of the best but still seem to be considered second tier HOFers in the hobby, at least in my experience.

[Johnny630]

I wouldn’t focus on The Who Could Be the Next Best Thing....I stay focused on the guys who got me there... Cobb, Ruth, Jackie, Mantle, and Mays.

[bbcard1]

My candidate for most underrated hall of famer would be Charlie Gehringer. He is not recognized at the level he performed. Probably a lot had to do with him playing in Detriot and he had a naturally quiet demeanor.

"He'd (Charlie Gehringer) say hello at the start of Spring Training and goodbye at the end of the season and the rest of the time he let his bat and glove do all the talking for him." - Cobb, Ty. Inside the Baseball Hall of Fame. National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. Simon & Schuster. 2 April 2013. Page 136.

[BearBailey]

I think Jackie Robinson and Hank Aaron’s prices have left under appreciated territory.
Joe Morgan and Steve Carlton still in n the under appreciated prices.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by BearBailey

I think Jackie Robinson and Hank Aaron’s prices have left under appreciated territory.
Joe Morgan and Steve Carlton still in n the under appreciated prices.

I was thinking Morgan is the most under-appreciated. Probably the second best 2B of all-time, only behind Hornsby. But his card prices don't come anywhere close to reflecting that and there is never any "buzz" about him.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I was thinking Morgan is the most under-appreciated. Probably the second best 2B of all-time, only behind Hornsby. But his card prices don't come anywhere close to reflecting that and there is never any "buzz" about him.

Agreed. He didn't hit any "counting stat" milestones, his BA isn't that high, and he wasn't a true power hitter. His greatness was more subtle.

[D. Bergin]

For a guy who won 3 Cy Youngs, was top 5, 8 times, a 20+ game winner 8 times, and has 3 World Series titles, I recently noticed how dirt cheap Jim Palmer cards tend to sell for.

Not holding my breath for the big jump though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

For a guy who won 3 Cy Youngs, was top 5, 8 times, a 20+ game winner 8 times, and has 3 World Series titles, I recently noticed how dirt cheap Jim Palmer cards tend to sell for.

Not holding my breath for the big jump though.

He wasn't a great strikeout artist and the rap on him, fair or not, was that he benefited greatly from the superb Oriole defense behind him.

[ATP]

These are the two that always come to mind for me.

Stan Musial
For Pitchers: Warren Spahn

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

I always thought Eddie Mathews was one.

[D. Bergin]

I don't own any of his cards, but I've been saying Jimmie Foxx was going to have a big price hike...for about 20 years now.

Looking at his gaudy stat lines, I feel like if Jimmie Foxx had been on the Yankees and Lou Gehrig had played on several teams like Foxx, their price structures would be reversed.

Then again, imagine Jimmie Foxx and Babe Ruth on the same team. They would have had some epic years, but they also might have had some epic parties and drinking competitions, ruining each other just a little bit at a time along the way.

[jingram058]

You brought him up. Lou Gehrig. Best first baseman, by numerous accounts, ever to play. Sure, the whole "The Pride Of The Yankees" ALS tragedy still puts him in a certain spotlight, but his cards, relatively speaking, remain quite affordable. You would think he would be in the rarified air of Ruth, Mantle, etc., but that is not the case.

[RCMcKenzie]

I think Morgan and Palmer cards are tied to the value of 60's-80's Topps, no matter how great they were as players. They do pretty well for the sets they are in. It gets worse for 90's stars like Bagwell and Frank Thomas.

For some reason that I don't understand, today's new releases are worth a lot of money, but when I pulled a 1978 Topps Morgan or Palmer, it was worth $0.10 in nm in the Beckect Price Guide. If Babe Ruth only had 70's Topps cards, he would still be the greatest player, but his cards would be very cheap.

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He wasn't a great strikeout artist and the rap on him, fair or not, was that he benefited greatly from the superb Oriole defense behind him.

He did benefit, but he could also hold his own on the mound, like when at age 19 he outdueled Sandy Koufax in game two of the 1966 World Series, shutting out the Dodgers. And don't forget this amazing stat on Palmer: He never ever gave up a single grand slam!

[robw1959]

I think Rodgers Hornsby fits the description pretty well.

[cgjackson222]

Its' interesting how the OP actually posed a question in his post that he sought answers to in the responses "Can anyone think of a Hall of Fame player who was once under appreciated, saw a big jump in prices, and is no longer considered undervalued by the hobby?"

But since few people actually read the original post and go off the title of the post, the responses have morphed from addressing the original post, to just addressing the title of the post.

[RCMcKenzie]

I'm not good at staying on topic in person either, I read too much Joyce I guess.

I thought the OP sort of answered his own question, but I would add that a future movie could be made by a famous director, with a big budget, about Chief Bender or someone else from that era. Moonlight Graham type stuff.

Joe Jackson's e90-1's used to be pretty reasonable. In the last 25 years they have gone up, I guess because of the movies.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Agreed. He didn't hit any "counting stat" milestones, his BA isn't that high, and he wasn't a true power hitter. His greatness was more subtle.

Yes, you'd need some kind of advanced stats to appreciate his value, like WAR. The same advanced stats he spent his post-playing broadcast career railing against.

[Seven]

I think Jackie Robinson's prices have become properly valued. I think there's a strong argument to be made that he's the greatest 2nd baseman ever, or at least right there with Rajah.

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I don't own any of his cards, but I've been saying Jimmie Foxx was going to have a big price hike...for about 20 years now.

Looking at his gaudy stat lines, I feel like if Jimmie Foxx had been on the Yankees and Lou Gehrig had played on several teams like Foxx, their price structures would be reversed.

Then again, imagine Jimmie Foxx and Babe Ruth on the same team. They would have had some epic years, but they also might have had some epic parties and drinking competitions, ruining each other just a little bit at a time along the way.

I do think Foxx is criminally underpriced and underrated. Gehrig does edge him out though in terms of who was better. The stats across the board favor Lou. Not even factoring the years Gehrig was robbed due to his illness. It's not like the teams Foxx were on didn't accomplish anything either.

I will say though, Foxx would be better remembered if he didn't fall off a cliff statistically. Through his age 32 Season he had exactly 500 Home Runs, he was in a good position to break The Babe's record. It's unfortunate what happened to him in the end.

[skelly423]

Thanks for all the comments. Jackie Robinson seems like a pretty great example of what I was looking for. I’ve said before that he should be the most expensive non-rookie card in every set he’s in, so there’s room to grow, but his prices have come a long way.

I’m not entirely convinced Mays, Aaron were ever undervalued, I’m inclined to think it’s entirely based on their comparison with Mickey Mantle. All else being equal, I think they’ve always been priced at the very top of the rest of their contemporaries.

[Casey2296]

I would sell every post war Jackie and buy every pre war Ty Cobb I could get my hands on.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I would sell every post war Jackie and buy every pre war Ty Cobb I could get my hands on.

So in 10 years you think Jackie Robinson's popularity will not grow as much as Ty Cobb's?

A lot of people really dislike Ty Cobb.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

So in 10 years you think Jackie Robinson's popularity will not grow as much as Ty Cobb's?

A lot of people really dislike Ty Cobb.

That is correct, I sold a 52 Jackie to fund my purchase of a 14CJ Cobb. I can still buy the Jackie for what I sold it for, I can't buy the Cobb for what I bought it for. In the next 10 years pre war will outclass post war by a wide margin. Also, don't know what the Cobb hate is all about, if one did a little research they would realize the good things he did for many people and rethink the racist trope.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In 1920 and 1921, Babe Ruth hit 54 and 59 home runs. In the same years, Ty Cobb, who was 33 and 34 years old, not exactly at the end of his days, hit 2 and 12. I would buy Ruth over Cobb 7 days a week, and then some. Ruth is the one player who will capture the imagination long into the future.

[Casey2296]

I don't disagree Peter but in today's market do you buy a 21 Exhibits Ruth or a 1907 Dietsche Cobb rookie for the same price? I'll go with the Cobb, but my decision might be clouded because I already have the Ruth.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I don't disagree Peter but in today's market do you buy a 21 Exhibits Ruth or a 1907 Dietsche Cobb rookie for the same price? I'll go with the Cobb, but my decision might be clouded because I already have the Ruth.

Not really a great comparison, I don't think, because one is a rookie card?

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not really a great comparison, I don't think, because one is a rookie card?

I was comparing dollar amounts, early Ruth's are outside of my price range and while the Ruth exhibits is one of my favorite cards I'd have to choose the Cobb rookie.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I was comparing dollar amounts, early Ruth's are outside of my price range and while the Ruth exhibits is one of my favorite cards I'd have to choose the Cobb rookie.

Well like you I have the Ruth, but even leaving that aside I might agree but only because it was Cobb's rookie card. In general, though, just as an investment proposition, I would much rather spend equivalent dollars on Ruth than Cobb even at today's prices.

[darwinbulldog]

Mays has always seemed underrated if you're comparing his card prices to Mantle's, but not if you compare him to the other great players of the 50s and 60s, so it's not Mays whose prices were "wrong" all this time. It was just Mantle.

[vansaad]

Originally Posted by robw1959

And don't forget this amazing stat on Palmer: He never ever gave up a single grand slam!

Remarkable he never gave up a granny in the majors. But he did give one up against the Buffalo Bisons in a rehab start. Without looking, anyone know who hit the grand slam?

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He wasn't a great strikeout artist and the rap on him, fair or not, was that he benefited greatly from the superb Oriole defense behind him.

Jim, always looked sharp in his tidy whiteys.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Thanks for all the comments. Jackie Robinson seems like a pretty great example of what I was looking for. I’ve said before that he should be the most expensive non-rookie card in every set he’s in, so there’s room to grow, but his prices have come a long way.

I’m not entirely convinced Mays, Aaron were ever undervalued, I’m inclined to think it’s entirely based on their comparison with Mickey Mantle. All else being equal, I think they’ve always been priced at the very top of the rest of their contemporaries.

+1 Agreed!

[skelly423]

Originally Posted by jingram058

You brought him up. Lou Gehrig. Best first baseman, by numerous accounts, ever to play. Sure, the whole "The Pride Of The Yankees" ALS tragedy still puts him in a certain spotlight, but his cards, relatively speaking, remain quite affordable. You would think he would be in the rarified air of Ruth, Mantle, etc., but that is not the case.

No disrespect intended, but I don't think I've ever seen Gehrig on an under appreciated list before. As far as the hobby (or career statistics) is concerned, Ruth is the #1, greatest of all time, transcendent superstar, and Gehrig's prices will never (and should never) reach that level of Ruth.

That said, he's the most expensive card in any set he is in -- or second most expensive when Ruth is in the set. It's hard to compare prices for players in entirely different ears, but IMO he's absolutely in the next echelon with Mantle, Cobb, Mays, etc.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by vansaad

Remarkable he never gave up a granny in the majors. But he did give one up against the Buffalo Bisons in a rehab start. Without looking, anyone know who hit the grand slam?

Johnny Bench -

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I don't own any of his cards, but I've been saying Jimmie Foxx was going to have a big price hike...for about 20 years now.

Looking at his gaudy stat lines, I feel like if Jimmie Foxx had been on the Yankees and Lou Gehrig had played on several teams like Foxx, their price structures would be reversed.

Then again, imagine Jimmie Foxx and Babe Ruth on the same team. They would have had some epic years, but they also might have had some epic parties and drinking competitions, ruining each other just a little bit at a time along the way.

Agree with Foxx...3x MVP and put up great numbers for 20 seasons. While his rookie card has appreciated he is clearly overlooked.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by skelly423

No disrespect intended, but I don't think I've ever seen Gehrig on an under appreciated list before. As far as the hobby (or career statistics) is concerned, Ruth is the #1, greatest of all time, transcendent superstar, and Gehrig's prices will never (and should never) reach that level of Ruth.

That said, he's the most expensive card in any set he is in -- or second most expensive when Ruth is in the set. It's hard to compare prices for players in entirely different ears, but IMO he's absolutely in the next echelon with Mantle, Cobb, Mays, etc.

No disputing Ruth as THE greatest of all time. But by the time 1933 Goudey came out, he was at the end. Gehrig was in his prime. Same with DeLong. I feel these 2 cards of Gehrig ought to be in the stratosphere. Beautiful cards. They aren't, go figure. I am fortunate to have a 1933 Goudey Ruth and Gehrig. To me, equal value. Not so if up for sale.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by jingram058

No disputing Ruth as THE greatest of all time. But by the time 1933 Goudey came out, he was at the end. Gehrig was in his prime. Same with DeLong. I feel these 2 cards of Gehrig ought to be in the stratosphere. Beautiful cards. They aren't, go figure. I am fortunate to have a 1933 Goudey Ruth and Gehrig. To me, equal value. Not so if up for sale.

James, house rules, every thread needs a card and I don't see one posted here yet. Will you do us the honors?

[jsfriedm]

I think a key part of the phenomenon of a previously underappreciated player gaining in popularity/value is potential constituency, and the most ready-made constituency for such a move is the team fan-base. If a previously down team starts to win for a prolonged period, especially if that coincides with a period of economic and demographic growth for their city, the fan base grows and that could lead to the appreciation of the team's vintage heroes (think Atlanta, Houston, etc.). On the other hand, if a fan base shrinks, there are fewer people who might be inclined to re-discover that team's heroes (I don't think it's a coincidence that so many of the top candidates for underappreciated players are Philadelphia As - Eddie Collins, Jimmie Foxx, Lefty Grove.)

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

James, house rules, every thread needs a card and I don't see one posted here yet. Will you do us the honors?

Totally agree. Here goes...

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Mays has always seemed underrated if you're comparing his card prices to Mantle's, but not if you compare him to the other great players of the 50s and 60s, so it's not Mays whose prices were "wrong" all this time. It was just Mantle.

That’s a good point…maybe Mantle is the outlier, not the “underrated” guys. Other than Mantle and maybe Ruth, who are the underrated compared to?

[jingram058]

1933 DeLong Gehrig. Beautiful card.

[sreader3]

Recent risers …

Clemente, Jackie, Lajoie

Future risers …

F. Robby, Morgan