The new breed of collectors...

[G1911]

I'm an old-school all-buy no-sell 'who-cares-about-value' type, but I'm a youngin', so I've spent a lot of time in the Discords with the new collectors and hung out with a lot of them.

I don't think they are really collectors. It's 80% about money, they do tend to think the cards are cool. They don't know much about the cards, the slab is king. But then again, it's old collectors who will pay thousands for vintage commons in a PSA 10 slab, so slab is king generally among both groups.

They are very open about pumping, though they don't seem to have much of a real economic understanding about the dump part. It's pump, pump, pump. They'll organize specific pumps together, but don't seem to realize what exactly they are doing, it's 'adding value through awareness' and they aren't organizing a 'dump' after the pump, so it's a little weird. They've spent a lot of time listening to Gary Vee and motivational stuff, no time studying mathematics or economics.

What I would consider ethics appears to be non-existent among the Discords. The only rule seems to be seller must deliver card to buyer. That's it. They can lie about condition, cover up problems, ignore alteration, whatever. Not really different again, the older breed of collectors have also been scamming and lying for decades, but the difference is the relative openness about this. I suppose a lot of it is because many of these guys come from the sneaker hobby that makes ours look squeaky clean.

While they lack in ethics (I have found this problem among the older sellers just as much, just with more obfuscation), they are extremely easy to deal with. There's no long back and forth. They'll say you're price is too high and make their offer, and that's usually their price, not a negotiation step. They are much, much better at using data. They will use actual comps instead of fantasies, and come correct with it.

They're also pretty nice, in their own way. They are pretty open it's mostly about adding value and making money, but they see it as a fun side hustle as opposed to making the same money doing a job. There's definitely an enjoyment factor. They'll chat pretty openly about most everything. If someone gets ripped off, like a card they bought had its photo taken at an angle to hide damage, there is no huge fight or spat. It's a 'you win some, you lose some, fair play' shrug. They tend not to be affluent, they tend not to be poor. They're making extra side money, but most of them I've chilled with or talked too are working decent jobs.

I can't say I've really had any negative interactions; I just don't like the approach. It's not really much different from the older collectors in the main; it's largely about money, there is an enjoyment factor, it's not a job but it's some extra cash and the cardboard is always related to the paper. It's just a different style of the same classic format from a different generation. I'd prefer the hobby be like it was 80 years ago, with things worth almost nothing and it just being about fun, but it hasn't been that way for decades.

The only thing true about generalizations is that they are untrue, but that's my 2 cents on the recurring takeaways from my talks with these gents.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not responding to or directed at anyone in particular, but IMO the notion that one can't care about value or even profit and be a "true" collector is both nonsense and offensive.

[G1911]

I don't think any of this breed even self identifies as a collector. They are investors, entrepreneurs, as they see it. Wall Street Bets with cardboard.

[BobbyStrawberry]

This is a fascinating discussion.

I'm wondering if the issue here–rather than any kind of generational/age difference–is money. As has been discussed in other threads, "true" collectors, in a sense, have been forced to reckon with their having become investors, whether they like it or not.

Cards I purchased two years ago with no intention of ever selling have gone up in value 2, 3 times or more. Obviously, many older collectors are experiencing this phenomenon even more strongly.

Were there pure "investors" (equivalent to those people today who don't even care what's inside the slab) in the hobby 30, 40, 50 years ago?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

This is a fascinating discussion.

I'm wondering if the issue here–rather than any kind of generational/age difference–is money. As has been discussed in other threads, "true" collectors, in a sense, have been forced to reckon with their having become investors, whether they like it or not.

Cards I purchased two years ago with no intention of ever selling have gone up in value 2, 3 times or more. Obviously, many older collectors are experiencing this phenomenon even more strongly.

Were there pure "investors" (equivalent to those people today who don't even care what's inside the slab) in the hobby 30, 40, 50 years ago?

I don’t think it’s that different from 30 years ago. 30 years ago was about the time a card bubble burst, after a ton of people came in investing in rookies as the hype built and built and production increased to meet the demand. I think most of those investors are not too dissimilar from todays new batch. I think it’s very different from 50 years ago. 1972 is about when money first started to slowly creep in.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Were there pure "investors" (equivalent to those people today who don't even care what's inside the slab) in the hobby 30, 40, 50 years ago?

I'd say that wasn't happening back then, because most cards had such little value up until the '80s (and they weren't considered as much more than collectible novelties). But now that they've had a steady basis as substantial assets for the last 40 years, it's a totally different ballgame to consider them as investments.

Edit: like Greg said, 30 years ago is entirely different than 50 in this case. I was referring just to <1980

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm an old-school all-buy no-sell 'who-cares-about-value' type, but I'm a youngin', so I've spent a lot of time in the Discords with the new collectors and hung out with a lot of them.

I don't think they are really collectors. It's 80% about money, they do tend to think the cards are cool. They don't know much about the cards, the slab is king. But then again, it's old collectors who will pay thousands for vintage commons in a PSA 10 slab, so slab is king generally among both groups.

They are very open about pumping, though they don't seem to have much of a real economic understanding about the dump part. It's pump, pump, pump. They'll organize specific pumps together, but don't seem to realize what exactly they are doing, it's 'adding value through awareness' and they aren't organizing a 'dump' after the pump, so it's a little weird. They've spent a lot of time listening to Gary Vee and motivational stuff, no time studying mathematics or economics.

What I would consider ethics appears to be non-existent among the Discords. The only rule seems to be seller must deliver card to buyer. That's it. They can lie about condition, cover up problems, ignore alteration, whatever. Not really different again, the older breed of collectors have also been scamming and lying for decades, but the difference is the relative openness about this. I suppose a lot of it is because many of these guys come from the sneaker hobby that makes ours look squeaky clean.

While they lack in ethics (I have found this problem among the older sellers just as much, just with more obfuscation), they are extremely easy to deal with. There's no long back and forth. They'll say you're price is too high and make their offer, and that's usually their price, not a negotiation step. They are much, much better at using data. They will use actual comps instead of fantasies, and come correct with it.

They're also pretty nice, in their own way. They are pretty open it's mostly about adding value and making money, but they see it as a fun side hustle as opposed to making the same money doing a job. There's definitely an enjoyment factor. They'll chat pretty openly about most everything. If someone gets ripped off, like a card they bought had its photo taken at an angle to hide damage, there is no huge fight or spat. It's a 'you win some, you lose some, fair play' shrug. They tend not to be affluent, they tend not to be poor. They're making extra side money, but most of them I've chilled with or talked too are working decent jobs.

I can't say I've really had any negative interactions; I just don't like the approach. It's not really much different from the older collectors in the main; it's largely about money, there is an enjoyment factor, it's not a job but it's some extra cash and the cardboard is always related to the paper. It's just a different style of the same classic format from a different generation. I'd prefer the hobby be like it was 80 years ago, with things worth almost nothing and it just being about fun, but it hasn't been that way for decades.

The only thing true about generalizations is that they are untrue, but that's my 2 cents on the recurring takeaways from my talks with these gents.

great post, good insight... thanks!

[Leon]

One thing I don't care for, nowadays, is all of the fake names. I just denied a guy into the FB Net54baseball group because he used 3 different names. I called him and spoke to him and he was nonchalant telling me one was a FB name and so on. I told him that rubs me the wrong way and find another forum or group. Then I banned him from here also. He had never posted but registered 5 yrs ago.
**If anyone on this forum knows someone here, using a fictitious name, please PM me and they will be shown the door. I had one I was looking into but that email got lost.
Thanks for the help.
.

[Hordfest]

The New collector is me...

I'm 32 years old, inherited some vintage baseball cards and have really dived into things. I have been dabbling in different areas, mixture of vintage and modern, set building, sealed, singles, etc. trying to find out what I enjoy.

I will say that it is a huge turn off for me when old school collectors gatekeep. There are a ton of helpful people on this forum, but as i can clearly see on this thread, there are some old timers who think that because they have been in the hobby for 40 years, that their opinion is sacred and that their way of collecting is the only way. All that does is push us away.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hordfest

The New collector is me...

I'm 32 years old, inherited some vintage baseball cards and have really dived into things. I have been dabbling in different areas, mixture of vintage and modern, set building, sealed, singles, etc. trying to find out what I enjoy.

I will say that it is a huge turn off for me when old school collectors gatekeep. There are a ton of helpful people on this forum, but as i can clearly see on this thread, there are some old timers who think that because they have been in the hobby for 40 years, that their opinion is sacred and that their way of collecting is the only way. All that does is push us away.

I'm not sure why it's a virtue not to care what the cards are worth. How many people collect art without regard to value? I agree there's a bit too much sanctimony sometimes.

[Hordfest]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm not sure why it's a virtue not to care what the cards are worth. How many people collect art without regard to value? I agree there's a bit too much sanctimony sometimes.

Agreed. Unlike the older generation, I will not have a pension, I probably won't have social security, I have seen prices skyrocket and wages plateau (and I'm a banker with a good job. ) Unfortunately, the reality is that I do need to care about card values to an extent. I have a masters degree in History so the historical element is also important to me, but card profitability and price changes are something that weighs heavily on me when I consider my family's future.

[Snapolit1]

I am sure in every collecting hobby there are people who act like the ultimate test of purity is to care less about what any of it’s worth. Really pretty silly as others have pointed out. At some point our collections will be sold buy us or others. Can’t take it with you as they say. Valuation is hardly beside the point. You can collect out of love of the game and love of collecting and also hope your stuff appreciates in value.

[conor912]

Let’s not forget there was a point in time not too long ago where a lot of old-time collectors were predicting a market crash and the death of the hobby due to a lack of young blood. Now we have that young blood and everyone is complaining about what they are doing. To borrow from the Stones, the hobby might not have gotten what it wanted, but it got what it needed. Even if 80% of the newcomers go by the wayside at the first sight of the next shiny thing, the last few years have brought in a lot new guys who really do love it. We need to give some time for the dust to settle.

[Orioles1954]

I work for an auction house that is connected with a card shop. I normally stay on the auction house side of the building but do go over to the shop from time to time. The new generation of collector is generally much more focused on singles and can care less about complete sets, team sets, building a set, etc.
I've noticed a dramatic increase in diversity and even some women have gotten into the game. While most don't know a thing about vintage, they do have a healthy appreciation for the history. I find they are much more open and respectful than the older hobby veterans are towards them. I also notice that foreign and alternative sports are gaining much more traction - Formula One, Soccer, WWE, etc.

[BobC]

The new, young collectors aren't an issue, or a problem, they just come from a different place and perspective. Baby Boomers are pretty much the ones who started and have fueled the sports card collecting craze, till these more recent years. And Baby Boomers did so primarily based on a unique experience that has ceased to exist for decades now. It was a happy coincidence that the Baby Boomer generation pretty much exactly coincided with the rise of Topps (and Bowman) baseball cards, and their availability and relatively cheap cost to Baby Boomers as kids. And the fact that these companies have been around so long, issuing new cards and sets consistently year after year on a national level, was heretofore virtually unheard of. Old Judge cards are likely the next closest example, having lasted five years from 1886-1890. Zeenuts were strictly a regional, minor league issue. And though Exhibit cards alone showed the kind of longevity Topps and Bowman have experienced, they were sold in primarily a much different method, not in packs, and certainly not in a numbered set that was fully changed, updated, and somewhat unique from year to year. Also the size difference played a huge role. You would much more easily be able to find a kid hauling round a rubber banded stack of regular baseball cards to school or the playground, than you ever would expect to see them hauling around a stack of Exhibit cards. Virtually every dime, drug, or other local store you'd walk into back in the 50s and 60s would always have packs of baseball (and other) cards for sale right on the counters for sale next to the register. Certainly not so today, or for many decades now.

And combine that with the Baby Boomer generation coinciding with the long overdue integration of baseball, MLB finally extending all the way to the West coast, the beginning of expansion in the number of MLB teams, and maybe most importantly of all, the post-war advent of television and the bringing of games/teams on a national level right into our living rooms. These elements and their timing all added up to create the perfect storm that vaulted us into the sports card collecting rise and surge that started in the 1980's, and has carried us for the most part till today. And that was all primarily due to baseball cards as the initiating genesis for all this.

So, the "old-timers" among us approach the fascination and attraction to the sports card collecting hobby as a somewhat shared, but pretty much unique collective background and experience that will never be duplicated. It is certainly different from the backgrounds and experiences that have led younger generations to the hobby now as well. And the Baby Boomers are lucky that younger generations are embracing and picking up the hobby so as to bolster prices for some who can then use that potential cash, if needed, as they get older and move into retirement. For many who started out collecting cards for fun and/or as reliving youthful memories, it is akin to finding a $20 bill in the pocket of a pair of jeans they pulled out of the dryer.

And there was never any guarantee that future generations would hold and look at sports cards, especially vintage cards, in the same overall esteem and value as the Baby Boomers do. Just look at stamp or train collecting today. Though both hobbies are still active and out there, the overall acceptance, following, and of course value associated with such items, have experienced nothing like the continued surge and growth to the sports card hobby and market. We have experienced additional good fortune on at least some factors of our hobby attracting new, fresh and younger faces to the fore.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by BobC

The new, young collectors aren't an issue, or a problem, they just come from a different place and perspective. Baby Boomers are pretty much the ones who started and have fueled the sports card collecting craze, till these more recent years. And Baby Boomers did so primarily based on a unique experience that has ceased to exist for decades now. It was a happy coincidence that the Baby Boomer generation pretty much exactly coincided with the rise of Topps (and Bowman) baseball cards, and their availability and relatively cheap cost to Baby Boomers as kids. And the fact that these companies have been around so long, issuing new cards and sets consistently year after year on a national level, was heretofore virtually unheard of. Old Judge cards are likely the next closest example, having lasted five years from 1886-1890. Zeenuts were strictly a regional, minor league issue. And though Exhibit cards alone showed the kind of longevity Topps and Bowman have experienced, they were sold in primarily a much different method, not in packs, and certainly not in a numbered set that was fully changed, updated, and somewhat unique from year to year. Also the size difference played a huge role. You would much more easily be able to find a kid hauling round a rubber banded stack of regular baseball cards to school or the playground, than you ever would expect to see them hauling around a stack of Exhibit cards. Virtually every dime, drug, or other local store you'd walk into back in the 50s and 60s would always have packs of baseball (and other) cards for sale right on the counters for sale next to the register. Certainly not so today, or for many decades now.

And combine that with the Baby Boomer generation coinciding with the long overdue integration of baseball, MLB finally extending all the way to the West coast, the beginning of expansion in the number of MLB teams, and maybe most importantly of all, the post-war advent of television and the bringing of games/teams on a national level right into our living rooms. These elements and their timing all added up to create the perfect storm that vaulted us into the sports card collecting rise and surge that started in the 1980's, and has carried us for the most part till today. And that was all primarily due to baseball cards as the initiating genesis for all this.

So, the "old-timers" among us approach the fascination and attraction to the sports card collecting hobby as a somewhat shared, but pretty much unique collective background and experience that will never be duplicated. It is certainly different from the backgrounds and experiences that have led younger generations to the hobby now as well. And the Baby Boomers are lucky that younger generations are embracing and picking up the hobby so as to bolster prices for some who can then use that potential cash, if needed, as they get older and move into retirement. For many who started out collecting cards for fun and/or as reliving youthful memories, it is akin to finding a $20 bill in the pocket of a pair of jeans they pulled out of the dryer.

And there was never any guarantee that future generations would hold and look at sports cards, especially vintage cards, in the same overall esteem and value as the Baby Boomers do. Just look at stamp or train collecting today. Though both hobbies are still active and out there, the overall acceptance, following, and of course value associated with such items, have experienced nothing like the continued surge and growth to the sports card hobby and market. We have experienced additional good fortune on at least some factors of our hobby attracting new, fresh and younger faces to the fore.

Bob, I always enjoy reading your well-thoughtout and detailed posts. Tony

[obiwan1129]

I've collected since the mid 1980's. My collecting habits have changed greatly over time. Initially I focused on building sets and collecting Cubs cards. As a result I had boxes upon boxes of commons. I was able to offload a bunch of them many years ago. I held onto a number of the sets.

Now I just collect Cubs cards and random things I find fun. I like to build small subsets that I create for myself. I finished up an Orbit gum (PR3) pin set not too long ago and it hangs nicely in a shadowbox on my office wall. That was 60 pin backs and still took me ~7 years to finish. I don't think I would even entertained that 30 years ago.

Right now I am collecting PSA slabbed Randy Hundley Topps base cards. And still looking for some 2016 A&G Cubs mini parallels. I also snag fun (for me) cards and they end up in binders for me to pull out now and again to enjoy. At some point, I think I am going to work on a 33 Goudey Cubs card set. Again, just something fun for me to enjoy.

I'm not interested in chasing the rookies or building sets like I did back in the Junk Wax era. I don't begrudge anyone from doing that now. I've been there and done that. I suspect many of the older collectors here were as well. I am comfortable in what I want to collect and I'll enjoy it accordingly. Seasons change and so do we. It's supposed to be fun, it doesn't have to stay the same.

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by conor912

Let’s not forget there was a point in time not too long ago where a lot of old-time collectors were predicting a market crash and the death of the hobby due to a lack of young blood. Now we have that young blood and everyone is complaining about what they are doing. To borrow from the Stones, the hobby might not have gotten what it wanted, but it got what it needed. Even if 80% of the newcomers go by the wayside at the first sight of the next shiny thing, the last few years have brought in a lot new guys who really do love it. We need to give some time for the dust to settle.

+1