Dave Parker - HOF?

[pcoz]

I grew up watching Parker play, and there's absolutely no doubt imo he should be in the HOF. The 80's drug trial is the only reason in my book he's been held out. Amazingly, he tore his ACL in HS, and never had it correctly repaired. He played his whole MLB career on a below average knee and still was a 7x All Star, NL MVP(should've won a 2nd in Cincy), All-Star game MVP, 2 Batting Titles, and 2x WS Champion. He completely rebuilt his career in Cincy and Oakland after leaving Pitt. Also, when Ozzie Smith got in the HOF, they asked him who's the best player he ever played against during his career, and without hesitation, said Dave Parker, who could do it all.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by pcoz

NL MVP(should've won a 2nd in Cincy)

While I definitely agree that Willie McGee should not have won the MVP in 1985, Dave Parker shouldn't have either. Dwight Gooden was, by far, the best player in the NL in 1985. If you don't like pitchers winning the MVP then I'd probably go with Dale Murphy instead over Parker. Similar average, OBP, SLG, and homer stats but Murphy was a significantly better defender.

[G1911]

Gooden got absolutely robbed in '85.

If we aren't allowed to pick a pitcher, I'd give it to Pedro Geuerrero that year. WAR has him a hair below McGee but I think he had the better year. Really only hurt by the fewer games, but he had the best rate production.

[D. Bergin]

McGee was as good a pick as anybody in 1985, if you're going with a non-pitcher.

[Ricky]

Garvey was a corner infielder who didn’t hit for power so WAR doesn’t like him. Parker didn’t walk and had a low OBP and those things weren’t valued in his time. Had they been, he might have been a different hitter. Wade Boggs, who DID walk a lot and had a high OBP, and was coming along at the same time, was kept in the minors by Boston until he was 25 because he was a third baseman who didn’t hit for power. Different times with different values from today. Our values today are heavily influenced by the relatively new metrics.

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by Ricky

Garvey was a corner infielder who didn’t hit for power so WAR doesn’t like him. Parker didn’t walk and had a low OBP and those things weren’t valued in his time. Had they been, he might have been a different hitter. Wade Boggs, who DID walk a lot and had a high OBP, and was coming along at the same time, was kept in the minors by Boston until he was 25 because he was a third baseman who didn’t hit for power. Different times with different values from today. Our values today are heavily influenced by the relatively new metrics.

The main reason those players didn't walk is because they were most likely high volume swingers who needed to do that approach to produce exactly what they did. Every generation has those guys, even now.

Every generation of hitters also has players who have the ability to be both selective enough to take walks and also still maintain a high slugging percentage and/or batting average(relative to their league averages). Those guys are called the elite.

It isn't really a choice to wake up one day and say "Hey, I'm going to take 50% more walks while also maintaining my slugging percentage and batting average." That is a rare ability.


What would surprise many is that the base on balls rate in MLB the last 15 years is actually lower than what it was in the 1950's, and very similar to that of the late 1970's/early 80's.

Since 2014 the walk per game rate has ranged from 2.88 to 3.39 per game.

From 1977 to 1979 it was 3.27, 3.24, and 3.23.

If it were as easy to do what Mike Schmidt did with walking 100 times a year and still leading the league in Home Runs AND Slugging percentage....then more people would do it...but they can't because they don't have that ability. It is rare. Players simply fall on different lines of that OB%/SLG% ability spectrum. It isn't the choice that many seem to think it is.

The 1950's ranged from a low of 3.29 to a high of 4.02.

[HistoricNewspapers]

To add to the above post, that generation of the 70's/80's had several guys who could take walks and still maintain batting averages and slugging percentages as good as Parker.

Eddie Murray in his prime, 1982-1985 had a slash line of .306/.394/.529, OPS+of 155. He is what I would call a hybrid of someone like Schmidt and Parker. Murray was selective enough to take his walks while also maintaining a higher volume of swings than someone like Schmidt. Murray had extreme elite hitting with men on base those years as well.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

What would surprise many is that the base on balls rate in MLB the last 15 years is actually lower than what it was in the 1950's, and very similar to that of the late 1970's/early 80's.

Since 2014 the walk per game rate has ranged from 2.88 to 3.39 per game.

From 1977 to 1979 it was 3.27, 3.24, and 3.23.

I must confess this surprised me.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Ricky

Garvey was a corner infielder who didn’t hit for power so WAR doesn’t like him. Parker didn’t walk and had a low OBP and those things weren’t valued in his time. Had they been, he might have been a different hitter. Wade Boggs, who DID walk a lot and had a high OBP, and was coming along at the same time, was kept in the minors by Boston until he was 25 because he was a third baseman who didn’t hit for power. Different times with different values from today. Our values today are heavily influenced by the relatively new metrics.

It doesn't say much for Parker if he spent 19 years in the majors and never learned that walks are valuable. Most of us knew that when we were 12 year old kids playing Little League.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

It doesn't say much for Parker if he spent 19 years in the majors and never learned that walks are valuable. Most of us knew that when we were 12 year old kids playing Little League.

Maybe it exists but it would be interesting to have a metric that assigns relative weights to walks, each type of hit, stolen bases, sacrifices and sac flies, etc and divides it over plate appearances. Maybe you even get a negative for GIDP and Ks.