Mike Baker Authenticated

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

Well, I hate to say it, but I fear you’ll be wasting your money. Honestly, stickers don’t mean much to collectors; most view them as a gimmick to sell cards. In the coin arena, stickers have a little cache, but all the ridiculous PWCC stickers are viewed as scams to increase the sales price. I have personally pealed these off of slabs.

I'm not getting the stickers because I want to flip them. They're for me. This is for my PC cards. That said, I agree that the stickers don't mean much to at least a plurality of collectors. There is no shortage of venom spewed at those who prefer and value cards with such stickers on them by the internet forum heroes this hobby so desperately needs. You're free to think of it as a "gimmick to sell cards", but if you look at the population of cards that have been awarded these stickers, you'll quickly realize that they are far superior copies of those cards when it comes to eye appeal, and centering in particular. I would take a perfectly centered 4 over any 9 that isn't perfectly centered all day for any card. It's just that important to me. The grading scales used by PSA, SGC, et al are borderline meaningless to me as a collector. Literally, the only thing I care about is eye appeal. I couldn't give a shit how sharp some corners are or if there's chipping along the edges of a card. Cards that get awarded "gold diamonds" or "PWCC-S" stickers always stand out to me. I've never seen a single one that wasn't an absolute stunner. The same isn't true though of cards with a number grade. Even PSA 10s often look like trash to me because they are violently off-centered.

I don't think of the stickers as a way to "get more money out of people". I think of it as an awards ceremony for my PC. What are the best of the best cards I own as far as eye-appeal goes? I'm giving them little awards that I find aesthetically pleasing.

As far as the broader market goes, the stickers do command a premium. The market indeed values Mike Baker's opinion. Certainly, there are many who don't value it at all, but they aren't the people paying premiums for these cards. His grading experience and expertise is very highly regarded and respected by a lot of people in this hobby. Cards that he places Gold Diamond stickers on sell for huge premiums at auction. I know this because I've been tracking the data and I built a statistical model to measure it's impact, as I stated above. I'm not guessing here. The numbers don't lie.

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

Mike Baker was always a nice guy, I talked with him at length back in the day, but his name carries absolutely no weight today, and his GAI business ventures ruined his once fairly good name. I don’t mean to put the guy down, but this is just a poor marketing ploy used by folks dissatisfied by their card’s actual grade.

His name may carry no weight to you, and no weight to a plurality of the hobby, but it certainly carries quite a bit of weight to a fairly large percentage of collectors. I would much rather have a card graded by Mike Baker than I would one of these Cheetoh chomping new hires at PSA who thinks that Gretzky RC above is a 6.

Also worth pointing out is that the argument that it's stupid to send a card in to Mike Baker because anyone can just look at the card and determine it's condition for themselves can just as easily be applied to a grading services in general (PSA, SGC, etc.). If you see no value in card grading services in general, then you're welcome to that opinion. But it isn't a very popular one. If you want to see what the hobby values as a whole, just follow the money.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In light of what happened at GAI, why should we believe a reincarnated Mike Baker is honest and free from influence?

In any case to me there is a big difference between Mike Baker authenticating and grading a card and Mike Baker certifying a card is nice for the grade.

[Lorewalker]

I see no value added having a cert from MBA but I see no value in the PWCC stickers either. Clearly there are fan boys for both of these certs.

I have not seen enough MBA certed cards for sale (which should not be interpreted that he is overly discerning or strict). Market has already shown nice cards for the grade sell for premiums...sometimes huge premiums. I think it is self-serving to conclude an MBA sticker is the reason on those sales.

Their cert is simply stating that they looked at the card in the holder and they feel it is nice for the grade, which anyone can do, no offense to MBA. He is not stating this PSA 6 is a PSA 8, which as a former grader, would actually be value added.

I guess I am secure enough in my life and in my ability to judge my own cards that I would not need to pay someone to reassure me and I certainly would not pay a premium for a card because it was certed by MBA but would pay a premium for a card that happened to be certed by them if I felt it was high end. Huge distinction, imo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'd like to see numbers on what percentage of cards sent to him (already a self selected group) Mike Baker is stickering.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

...Market has already shown nice cards for the grade sell for premiums...sometimes huge premiums. I think it is self-serving to conclude an MBA sticker is the reason on those sales.

As I explained above, I controlled for this factor in my model. I am not making an assumption. I tested that hypothesis using robust statistical techniques. I scored the centering of every card on a scale of 1 to 10 and included that data in the model. The model measures the impact of both centering AND the stickers. The results are that BOTH centering AND having a Gold Diamond sticker adds value to the card. Significant value. Silver stickers didn't add much, but the gold stickers did.

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Their cert is simply stating that they looked at the card in the holder and they feel it is nice for the grade, which anyone can do, no offense to MBA. He is not stating this PSA 6 is a PSA 8, which as a former grader, would actually be value added.

Based on the data though, the market appears to interpret these stickers as "this card is under graded" regardless of whether or not that is his intention.

Yes, anyone can look at the card and determine that it looks nice on their own. No sticker needed. But the same is true for grading in general. Anyone can look at a card in a 3 holder and see that it's in VG condition without needing the slab. Same is true with NM cards. And buyers are fully capable of placing higher value on better conditioned cards without slabs. Just look at Greg Morris's raw card sales on eBay. The raw card market appears to account for condition just fine on its own. Yet, we still have grading companies and the market has made it clear that it values their opinions. More so than just the card's appearance on its own merit. A NM-MT raw card sells for a fraction of what that exact same card sells for if it's sitting inside of a PSA 8 slab. The same is true of MBA Gold Diamond stickers. The market values them. It values them more than just the card itself. You may not like it. You may think those who place value on such things are [insert your favorite insult here], but the fact remains; it still adds value. Value in excess of what nice centering/eye appeal would otherwise add to a card on its own.

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I guess I am secure enough in my life and in my ability to judge my own cards that I would not need to pay someone to reassure me and I certainly would not pay a premium for a card because it was certed by MBA but would pay a premium for a card that happened to be certed by them if I felt it was high end. Huge distinction, imo.

There it is. Here come the jabs. People who like these Gold Diamond stickers are "insecure" lol.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

As I explained above, I controlled for this factor in my model. I am not making an assumption. I tested that hypothesis using robust statistical techniques. I scored the centering of every card on a scale of 1 to 10 and included that data in the model. The model measures the impact of both centering AND the stickers. The results are that BOTH centering AND having a Gold Diamond sticker adds value to the card. Significant value. Silver stickers didn't add much, but the gold stickers did.

I am not a data scientist so I cannot envision how a model can account for or demonstrate that a card with an MBA cert sells for more money than if it did not have the MBA cert without running parallel sales. I did however allude to the fact that I saw MBA certed cards sell for stupid money but the N was very small.

Based on the data though, the market appears to interpret these stickers as "this card is under graded" regardless of whether or not that is his intention.

Yes, anyone can look at the card and determine that it looks nice on their own. No sticker needed. But the same is true for grading in general. Anyone can look at a card in a 3 holder and see that it's in VG condition without needing the slab. Same is true with NM cards. And buyers are fully capable of placing higher value on better conditioned cards without slabs. Just look at Greg Morris's raw card sales on eBay. The raw card market appears to account for condition just fine on its own. Yet, we still have grading companies and the market has made it clear that it values their opinions. More so than just the card's appearance on its own merit. A NM-MT raw card sells for a fraction of what that exact same card sells for if it's sitting inside of a PSA 8 slab. The same is true of MBA Gold Diamond stickers. The market values them. It values them more than just the card itself.You may not like it. You may think those who place value on such things are [insert your favorite insult here], but the fact remains; it still adds value. Value in excess of what nice centering/eye appeal would otherwise add to a card on its own.

The bolded sentences are simply not accurate statements. Check Greg Morris's raw card sales for NM-MT and more times than not the card sells for more than it would in an 8. And stating the market values MBA certs is simply not true. The whole market does value them...you do and a small minority of collectors might.

There it is. Here come the jabs. People who like these Gold Diamond stickers are "insecure" lol.

You carried on in two infomercial missives about the virtues of MBA. In one you wrote

I say they deserve an award, and I plan on giving mine little gold diamond stickers because I like how they look. It's like the trophy shelf of my collection. And they display nicely too. Plus, now I can tell that clown who says, "comps for a PSA 5 are about $5k" to take a hike just that much more easily without having to defend why I'm asking above "comps" if I ever decide to sell.

That sounded pretty insecure to me. Was not an insult it was my observation. I know you want to be the only one who can make observations but too bad.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Originally Posted by Snowman

As I explained above, I controlled for this factor in my model. I am not making an assumption. I tested that hypothesis using robust statistical techniques.
.

I don’t mean to offend, but I have to call bull on this one. I worked previously with the BLS, that’s the Bureau of Labor Statistics, who’s tag line literally is, “We have a stat for that.” A guy with a spreadsheet recording a few sales and various odd pieces of descriptive data does not a data model make. You won’t convince others that this path is meaningful. For that matter, No need to justify to others who don’t agree that these “certificates” hold any special value. You like them, that’s fine. Seriously, enjoy.

By the way, if Baker kept 22 of your cards when he failed in his attempt to reinvigorate GAI, you might feel differently about his reputation.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

I don’t mean to offend, but I have to call bull on this one. I worked previously with the BLS, that’s the Bureau of Labor Statistics, who’s tag line literally is, “We have a stat for that.” A guy with a spreadsheet recording a few sales and various odd pieces of descriptive data does not a data model make. You won’t convince others that this path is meaningful. For that matter, No need to justify to others who don’t agree that these “certificates” hold any special value. You like them, that’s fine. Seriously, enjoy.

By the way, if Baker kept 22 of your cards when he failed in his attempt to reinvigorate GAI, you might feel differently about his reputation.

Doubt. Our snowman loves PWCC. He has a thing for the bad boys of the hobby.

And thank you...I figured his "models", which he has for every single thread he posts on, are utter BS that most of us could not refute but he uses them all in an effort to disarm his adversaries.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

I don’t mean to offend, but I have to call bull on this one. I worked previously with the BLS, that’s the Bureau of Labor Statistics, who’s tag line literally is, “We have a stat for that.” A guy with a spreadsheet recording a few sales and various odd pieces of descriptive data does not a data model make. You won’t convince others that this path is meaningful. For that matter, No need to justify to others who don’t agree that these “certificates” hold any special value. You like them, that’s fine. Seriously, enjoy.

Nice try with the name drop. Let's not pretend like you know what you're talking about here. You don't build statistical models.

I'm a professional statistician/data scientist. Building models like this is what I do for work every day. The primary work of a statistician is to perform hypothesis tests using data and mathematics. Just because you don't understand how it works doesn't mean that it in fact does not work.

This isn't a difficult problem to understand or to solve for. If you want to know whether or not an MBA sticker has a statistically significant impact on selling prices, then all you have to do is gather enough data (a few hundred sales is more than sufficient) and build a statistical model to perform any number of hypothesis tests. You can control for other variables by including them in the model. Variables you might want to control for could be: Which grading company graded the card, the grade of the card, which card it is, centering, pop count, sticker or no sticker, date of sale, a market index to tether to the date, and numerous other things you might want to track like stains, creases, focus/registration, etc. Then you can just build a simple (or complex if you want) regression model or an ANOVA/ANCOVA model, or some machine learning models, or a multilevel mixed effects model, or whatever other model you want to build that tests hypotheses. This is pretty elementary stuff in the world of statistics. It's really not that complicated. Models will estimate the impact of each variable included in the model, and it will also output a P-value that informs you whether or not that impact is statistically significant (the more sales data you have in your model, the more power the model has in determining statistical significance).

But I'm sure you know all this stuff because you worked "with" the Bureau of Labor Statistics lol.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

I don’t mean to offend, but I have to call bull on this one. I worked previously with the BLS, that’s the Bureau of Labor Statistics, who’s tag line literally is, “We have a stat for that.” A guy with a spreadsheet recording a few sales and various odd pieces of descriptive data does not a data model make. You won’t convince others that this path is meaningful. For that matter, No need to justify to others who don’t agree that these “certificates” hold any special value. You like them, that’s fine. Seriously, enjoy.

By the way, if Baker kept 22 of your cards when he failed in his attempt to reinvigorate GAI, you might feel differently about his reputation.

Plus one on this. I hear robust model and I have to laugh just a little.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't think of the stickers as a way to "get more money out of people". I think of it as an awards ceremony for my PC. What are the best of the best cards I own as far as eye-appeal goes? I'm giving them little awards that I find aesthetically pleasing.

Then why not just buy your own stickers, have a little ceremony, and put stickers on your favorite cards. Gold stars might be a good choice.

Obviously, I don't get it.

[Lorewalker]

I was just poking around eBay and saw a few completed BIN sales for some 50s and 60s cards with MBA certs that went for exceptionally strong prices. Only the buyer could tell us if the price they paid reflected the MBA cert but it would appear to be the case.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I was just poking around eBay and saw a few completed BIN sales for some 50s and 60s cards with MBA certs that went for exceptionally strong prices. Only the buyer could tell us if the price they paid reflected the MBA cert but it would appear to be the case.

Were any already blessed by PWCC? Maybe there's a double premium for a double sticker?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Were any already blessed by PWCC? Maybe there's a double premium for a double sticker?

Funny you should ask. I saw a 69 someone another in a PSA 8 with a PWCC A and an MBA Gold and at the very least the card was a diamond cut (slanted top edge with compensating slanted bottom edge) which sorta supports why the entire concept is utter BS. Never underestimate the gimmicks, smoke and mirrors most collectors will fall for.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Funny you should ask. I saw a 69 someone another in a PSA 8 with a PWCC A and an MBA Gold and at the very least the card was a diamond cut (slanted top edge with compensating slanted bottom edge) which sorta supports why the entire concept is utter BS. Never underestimate the gimmicks, smoke and mirrors most collectors will fall for.

Maybe as part of its (allegedly) ongoing work the FBI will sticker cards that are legit. Now THAT I might pay for. Or they could put a contraband sticker on bad cards Brent turned over when he was cooperating. Would pay even more.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe as part of its (allegedly) ongoing work the FBI will sticker cards that are legit. Now THAT I might pay for. Or they could put a contraband sticker on bad cards Brent turned over when he was cooperating. Would pay even more.

I would hope those would already be in the collection of the FBI like other crap they have confiscated. Check the PSA Reg and see how many sets the FBI has registered.

[1880nonsports]

Yes Snowman that would make me a nay.

You state "The only thing I care about is eye appeal." OK but isn't the sticker then just confirming for you your own thoughts? You had these thoughts already when procuring the cards - believed you could ferret out an under graded card that at least theoretically was under valued.

Instead of paying for that I might prefer another route - like sharing the enjoyment with like minded people who understand the nuances. Admittedly in their daily lives people pay all the time for the "yes you're right" response.

Now you have a card with FOUR people involved in it's authenticity and appeal - you, the original grading company, the new company, and finally the person or people that eventually get to see the card or possible buy it at a price that might exceed whatever the current cost basis is for a particular grade of a graded card.
I never should have gone down this rabbit hole before having coffee....

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe as part of its (allegedly) ongoing work the FBI will sticker cards that are legit. Now THAT I might pay for. Or they could put a contraband sticker on bad cards Brent turned over when he was cooperating. Would pay even more.

Ah yes, the "ongoing investigation". Any day now, any day now...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Funny you should ask. I saw a 69 someone another in a PSA 8 with a PWCC A and an MBA Gold and at the very least the card was a diamond cut (slanted top edge with compensating slanted bottom edge) which sorta supports why the entire concept is utter BS. Never underestimate the gimmicks, smoke and mirrors most collectors will fall for.

OH MAN, If we could get a Purple sticker on that slab it would be priceless.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by bnorth

OH MAN, If we could get a Purple sticker on that slab it would be priceless.

Sorry Ben but there was no room left on the slab for another sticker.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The market indeed values Mike Baker's opinion. Certainly, there are many who don't value it at all, but they aren't the people paying premiums for these cards. His grading experience and expertise is very highly regarded and respected by a lot of people in this hobby. Cards that he places Gold Diamond stickers on sell for huge premiums at auction. I know this because I've been tracking the data and I built a statistical model to measure it's impact, as I stated above. I'm not guessing here. The numbers don't lie.



His name may carry no weight to you, and no weight to a plurality of the hobby, but it certainly carries quite a bit of weight to a fairly large percentage of collectors. I would much rather have a card graded by Mike Baker than I would one of these Cheetoh chomping new hires at PSA who thinks that Gretzky RC above is a 6.

Should have just highlighted the whole thing but its pretty easy to tell your a ******* moron and deserve to be ripped off. What a f*%^!ng tw()t w@fffle thinking that someone with that rep carries clout in this hobby and their opinion is valued. You should honestly be kicked off this board for such a stupid ass comment and support of people like this in the hobby. Seriously BRO!!!! I vote for your removal from the NET 54 chat board. Anyone second, third, ..., that notion to be brought to Leon for approval? Or keep this clown and vote me off the island so I know where peoples integrity stands

[Johnny630]

I'm against silencing anyone on this board for just voicing his opinion. Freedom of Speech is Still Fundamental in America.

Who Seconds that?

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I'm against silencing anyone on this board for just voicing his opinion. Freedom of Speech is Still Fundamental in America.

Who Seconds that?

Its not silencing for voicing an opinion. It removal for support of fraud in the hobby. You can go with this clown too if you support this type of behavior. Free speech That has been taken away my friend along with most of our rights. Can you stand on the senate floor or in congress and voice your concerns about the people you hired to represent us. Nope you sure can't. It could take years of paperwork to make that happen and then what you say is controlled and your not allowed to address members directly with questions about integrity and why they lied about the promises they made. Can I say racist and anti-semetic terms to everyone I meet? Sure the f*ck can't. I can be arrested and held for longer than major criminals over making remarks like that. If we were allowed free speech then my opinion should be allowed regardless if it offends or hurts someones feelings.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Its not silencing for voicing an opinion. It removal for support of fraud in the hobby. You can go with this clown too if you support this type of behavior.

Type of Behavior ? What are you taking about ?? You want him removed for having an opinion that is contrary to yours ? His opinion is his, he has a right to voice it. I might not agree but so what, removal that’s ridiculous.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Type of Behavior ? What are you taking about ?? You want him removed for having an opinion that is contrary to yours ? His opinion is his, he has a right to voice it. I might not agree but so what, removal that’s ridiculous.

Not having an opinion contrary to mine? Never said that and you know it plain as day in black and white! Great try putting words in my mouth. Read the second sentence and not what you want to make up! I SAID HE SUPPORTS FRAUD IN THE HOBBY!!!!!!!!! No place for that here!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously you should be a politician with that snake tongue. People have been banned for less.

I NEED NO MORE PROOF THAN THAT OF WHAT SNOWMAN POSTED IN SUPPORT OF CONTINUED FRAUD IN HIS OWN WORDS AND OPINIONS.