T206 group of 350-only Series NO-PRINTS....CB, EPDG, OM, PB

[HobokenJon]

OK. I'm satisfied we can leave it at that, since this discussion seems now to be more about theory and personal preference for how to label a given subject.

I do believe this discussion underscores the usefulness of the "print group" framework, so as to create a common language among Monster collectors and avoid confusion. Except for the super prints, I would refer to all of the cards with apple green Sovereign 350 backs as either Print Group 3 or series 350-460. I wouldn't refer to any apple green Sovereign 350 as part of Print Group 2 or the 350-only series. But hey, if you want to call them that, who am I to stop you? ... But I may have a few questions so I can understand where you're coming from.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

OK. I'm satisfied we can leave it at that, since this discussion seems now to be more about theory and personal preference for how to label a given subject.

I do believe this discussion underscores the usefulness of the "print group" framework, so as to create a common language among Monster collectors and avoid confusion. Except for the super prints, I would refer to all of the cards with apple green Sovereign 350 backs as either Print Group 3 or series 350-460. I wouldn't refer to any apple green Sovereign 350 as part of Print Group 2 or the 350-only series. But hey, if you want to call them that, who am I to stop you? ... But I may have a few questions so I can understand where you're coming from.

"Theory and personal preference"....back in 2006 - 2007, there was confusion regarding the make-up of the T206 SOVEREIGN set on Net54. And, this was one of the factors
which motivated me to put this set together. In my one year adventure of arriving at a complete basic 402-subject set, I developed certain THEORIES of how American Litho
produced these cards (series by series). Especially, in figuring out which subjects were NOT PRINTED. Yes that result was just one of my theories. But, you know what guys ?
All my theories have withstood the test of time (15 years).
I attribute this partially as to how I arrange my T206's. Four of my 5 sets of T206's are arranged according to the 6 series in the set (150-only, 150/350, 350-only, 350/460,
460-only, and the Southern Leaguers.
The so-called "print group" framework is at best a confusing system, which does not allow you to clearly understand the complexity of The Monster.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[parkerj33]

T-Rex Teddy,

Just to clarify my understanding, I *think* you are saying that the Rhoades is "effectively" a 350-only subject just like Nichols and Doyle, but was intended to be a 350/460 subject. Hence, all three have apple green sovereign backs and NOT forest-green backs.

So they are accidental exceptions to the rule that apple green is only on 350/460 series, because AmerLith made an audible to cancel them early.

I hope this makes sense and doesn't make things worse!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by parkerj33

T-Rex Teddy,

Just to clarify my understanding, I *think* you are saying that the Rhoades is "effectively" a 350-only subject just like Nichols and Doyle, but was intended to be a 350/460 subject. Hence, all three have apple green sovereign backs and NOT forest-green backs.

So they are accidental exceptions to the rule that apple green is only on 350/460 series, because AmerLith made an audible to cancel them early.

I hope this makes sense and doesn't make things worse!

Jim

You always make good sense my friend. And, I love your use of the NFL term (an audible). Jim....you made my day

Rhoades (right arm extended) is absolutely a 350-only subject.

What I don't understand is....why American Lithographic even considered extending Rhoades into the 350/460 Series ?
Rhoades had ended his MLB career back in the Summer of 1909.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

The confusion about if a card is a 350 only or not is one of the reasons I bumped the print group thread it explains the cards being discussed in this thread.



https://www.t206resource.com/Print%20Group%201.html

https://www.t206resource.com/Print%20Group%202.html

https://www.t206resource.com/Print%20Group%203.html

https://www.t206resource.com/Print%2...Checklist.html

https://www.t206resource.com/Print%2...Checklist.html

Once you understand them you can see why Dahlen Brooklyn is one of the 28 subjects found with a factory 30 sheet number, he's in the same print group as the other 27 subjects.
img706.jpg

[parkerj33]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jim

You always make good sense my friend. And, I love your use of the NFL term (an audible). Jim....you made my day

Rhoades (right arm extended) is absolutely a 350-only subject.

What I don't understand is....why American Lithographic even considered extending Rhoades into the 350/460 Series ?
Rhoades had ended his MLB career back in the Summer of 1909.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Thanks Ted. I am also surmising that what Pat is saying is that the print group concept helps to explain how a card might be effectively a 350-only, but was printed alongside other cards that were part of 350/460 series.

I think this is where there is a difference of theories, but they are still compatible.......you would say that all 350 only's were printed together, whereas pat would suggest that a few of the 350 only's were really printed alongside other 350/460 subjects...and they just got audibled out of existence in the backs that would have made them 350/460s.

I use the term "effectively" to account for the concept that it was supposed to be a 350/460 in the planning, but got changed at the last minute. So in reality (aka "in effect") it only exists as a 350 subject, but was printed (initially) by "intention" as if it was going to be a 350/460 subject. The semantics/wording here is critical.

Regardless, it remains curious why AL would even consider him for 350/460...maybe they just wanted to round out their sheets and blindly continued him on, and then someone smarter figured out this guy doesn't even play anymore! Hanlon's razor: Never assign to malice that which can be explained by ignorance!

I clearly enjoy trying to make sense of this stuff...

[tedzan]

Jim

I like your style of thinking regarding the T206 cards. It goes back to when I first posted my T206 REFERENCE thread 5 years ago (or even before then).

Jefferson Burdick and Bill Heitman many years ago clearly defined the structure of the T206 set by establishing easy to understand terminology regarding
the various series (150-only....150/350....350-only....350/460....460-only....So. Lgr.).

The cryptic term "Print Group #" in T206 Resource somewhat troubles me, because it is not a clearly definable term that instantly clues you in as to which
series a T206 is in. In some cases it blurs them over.


Two guys here are stating that Elberfeld (portrait-Washington) is a "150/350" card. So where is a PIEDMONT 150 or SWEET CAPORAL 150 in PSA's pop
report of this card ? ? Perhaps, they are invisible
And, these two guys say the same for G. Brown (Washington) and Dahlen (Brooklyn). But....PSA's pop report says NO ! and NO !






150/350 ---------------------- 350-only ---------------------- 150/350 -------------------- 350-only

150-only -------------------- 350-only



Furthermore, here are examples of two more SAME image T206's with different team captions and in different Series.

350-only ---------------------------- 350/460 ------------------------ 350-only --------------------- 350/460



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Luke]

I think we are getting too hung up on looking at the backs of the cards. Elberfeld, Dahlen and Browne are all in the 150-350 Series or Print Group 1 because they were all in the first group. Dahlen Boston was just replaced with Dahlen Brooklyn on the sheets as the 150-350 Series played out.

The term "350 Only Series", or "Print Group 2" means something very specific. It refers to this group of poses:

https://t206resource.com/Print%20Gro...Checklist.html

That's all it means.

-Cobb red background was printed with a Piedmont 350 back, but it's a not a part of Print Group 2. It's in Print Group 5.

-Dahlen Brooklyn was printed with a Piedmont 350 back but it's not a part of Print Group 2. It's a Part of Print Group 1.

-Rhoades Arm Extended was printed with a Piedmont 350 back but it is not a part of Print Group 2. It's in Print Group 3.

The last bunch of posts are people looking at the same data and making up their own terms to describe what we're talking about. We don't need to make up new ways to describe this stuff. The Print Group framework is already established and available for anyone to refer to. Its simple and elegant and perfectly explains the timelines of the various series. Understanding the Print Groups is the key to a deep understanding of the patterns within the set.

Here are the checklists:

https://t206resource.com/Checklist%20Main.html

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jim

I like your style of thinking regarding the T206 cards. It goes back to when I first posted my T206 REFERENCE thread 5 years ago (or even before then).

Jefferson Burdick and Bill Heitman many years ago clearly defined the structure of the T206 set by establishing easy to understand terminology regarding
the various series (150-only....150/350....350-only....350/460....460-only....So. Lgr.).

The cryptic term "Print Group #" in T206 Resource somewhat troubles me, because it is not a clearly definable term that instantly clues you in as to which
series a T206 is in. In some cases it blurs them over.


Two guys here are stating that Elberfeld (portrait-Washington) is a "150/350" card. So where is a PIEDMONT 150 or SWEET CAPORAL 150 in PSA's pop
report of this card ? ? Perhaps, they are invisible
And, these two guys say the same for G. Brown (Washington) and Dahlen (Brooklyn). But....PSA's pop report says NO ! and NO !






150/350 ---------------------- 350-only ---------------------- 150/350 -------------------- 350-only

150-only -------------------- 350-only



Furthermore, here are examples of two more SAME image T206's with different team captions and in different Series.

350-only ---------------------------- 350/460 ------------------------ 350-only --------------------- 350/460



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

It doesn't "blur them over" it clearly shows that Dahlen Brooklyn and Elberfeld Washington were printed with the 150/350 subjects, That's why Elberfeld Washington is found with a Blue Old Mill and Dahlen Brooklyn is found with a factory sheet number and your claim that factory sheet numbers are found in all 5 series is false. they are only found on print group 1 subjects.