1957 La Aficion cards mexican cards/cuban players

[richardcards]

Just like the Romeo y Julieta everyone
thought fake.

The bottom line here is that there is
no concrete evidence that mine is fake.

Again did not get from ebay got it
from serious knowledgeable collector
and its not laser printed.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by richardcards

Just like the Romeo y Julieta everyone
thought fake.

The bottom line here is that there is
no concrete evidence that mine is fake.

Again did not get from ebay got it
from serious knowledgeable collector
and its not laser printed.

[Jason19th]

As someone who owned one of the Romeo’s I will be honest I still am very skeptical about their production. The fact that they have been slabbed by CSG is really meaningless to me because I don’t understand what information they used to make the determination. Therefore I don’t think that they “legitimization” should have anything to do with the 1957 .

That being said the one potential argument that I think needs to be made. Why in the world would anyone fake those. Show me another example of a fantasy piece that are so crude. While the other card types sold by the Mexican eBay seller are clearly lazar printed fantasy items, isn’t it possible that these were just crude paper give away produced in such an inexpensive unlicensed manner as to leave no proof of production. Maybe a roll of them was found in the offices of some out of business novelty company.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

As someone who owned one of the Romeo’s I will be honest I still am very skeptical about their production. The fact that they have been slabbed by CSG is really meaningless to me because I don’t understand what information they used to make the determination. Therefore I don’t think that they “legitimization” should have anything to do with the 1957 .

That being said the one potential argument that I think needs to be made. Why in the world would anyone fake those. Show me another example of a fantasy piece that are so crude. While the other card types sold by the Mexican eBay seller are clearly lazar printed fantasy items, isn’t it possible that these were just crude paper give away produced in such an inexpensive unlicensed manner as to leave no proof of production. Maybe a roll of them was found in the offices of some out of business novelty company.

I will say, from my experience with their head grader, they will do work the others (or at least SGC) won't do in order to grade and authenticate properly. The fact CSG graded it, or them, does need to be taken into account. And of course no one is infallible....
.

[Jason19th]

Originally Posted by Leon

I will say, from my experience with their head grader, they will do work the others (or at least SGC) won't do in order to grade and authenticate properly. The fact CSG graded it, or them, does need to be taken into account. And of course no one is infallible....
.

My issue isn’t really about CSG. It a more general concern about authentication when there is no exemplar that you can work from.

[richardcards]

Jason I think you are on to something here.
Why would someone want to fake Wenceslao
Gonzales. Its not like they faking Babe Ruth.
Most of the cards found are some sort of tribute
to cuban players that played in Mexico Wesceslao played from 1951 thru 1969.
I think its a really neat and obsure card.

[doug.goodman]

"Why would they fake these" is not a valid argument that they aren't fake.

There are thousands of items on ebay for less than a dollar,

So one could say "why would somebody spend the time needed to post an item and ship an item for less than a $1 profit?"

The answer is I don't know, but thousands still do it.

The reason that somebody would fake a Wenesloa Gonzales card, is because they figure somebody else might find their faked card "really neat" and would maybe give them money for it.

None of my business, but may I ask what you paid for it?

I have paid money for fantasy pieces, nothing wrong with that. Things are worth whatever people are willing to pay for them, whether 'fantasy' or 'real'.

Doug

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

My issue isn’t really about CSG. It a more general concern about authentication when there is no exemplar that you can work from.

There are a few ways to authenticate something when it's the first of its kind discovered. Most have to do with how it was made and if that method and the materials were available at the time AND in the place it was supposedly made.


AS for the rest of it, I'd want to at least see some decent resolution scans.

That would finish the laser printed vs not laser printed question.

Rounding corners takes seconds, not hours so that means very little.

Player selection doesn't mean much either. Most good forgers of small printed items have done both rare and very ordinary items. As one banknote forger said when asked what he would change if he was starting over "I'd counterfeit ones. Nobody ever gives those a second glance. "
The long play is to fake commons, then "discover" a star card once the commons have been accepted as as a legitimate set.
There's also a bit of higher interest in a players only card from his playing days.

It's also conceivable that these are some sort of privately and poorly made tribute set to the players who only mattered locally or to the producer. Which then got faked by someone else and falsely attributed to a card producer from the area.


In general, good expertisers approach an item not with the intent to prove it to be genuine, but to prove it to be fake. Only once something fails all tests that would indicate it's fake, can it really be considered genuine.

[Exhibitman]

Here's one for those who want to believe:



Wanna buy it? Comes with a fractional share of the Brooklyn Bridge too.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by steve B

As one banknote forger said when asked what he would change if he was starting over "I'd counterfeit ones. Nobody ever gives those a second glance. "

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Here's one for those who want to believe:



Wanna buy it? Comes with a fractional share of the Brooklyn Bridge too.

I'll take it. Is it okay if I pay in ones?