Ranking of T206 Rarities

[Exhibitman]

I think we're actually premature to declare the old-school collections tapped out. I know quite a few collectors in the 50-75 y.o. range who have been actively collecting for 50-70 years, have insane collections that they do not broadcast, and who do not generally bother with slabbing unless they are selling something. Those collectors tend to favor prewar cards rather heavily and have a good number of rare cards sitting in their binders. 25 years from now is more likely when we can start saying the OG raw collections are winding down.

[BearBailey]

Didn’t Cooperstown have an exhibit one year tht was the largest collection of t206 Wagner’s ever in one place. I thought they got 48-55 on loan and they knew of around 20 more at least that people were un-willing to let them borrow for the exhibit? I think it was 1995. It was a really impressive display.

[Jobu]

Are you thinking of the Wagner Reunion from the 2004 National? If it is, they only (only!!) had 10 Wagners there - 9 were at the MastroNet booth, and the one that wasn't as his booth oddly enough is the one that he trimmed (it was at the PSA booth):

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_42.html

Originally Posted by BearBailey

Didn’t Cooperstown have an exhibit one year tht was the largest collection of t206 Wagner’s ever in one place. I thought they got 48-55 on loan and they knew of around 20 more at least that people were un-willing to let them borrow for the exhibit? I think it was 1995. It was a really impressive display.

[FrankWakefield]

I agree with Adam.

Several years ago when I first found this Net54 place, I was trying to gather all information I could. This place was a treasure. It still is. My knowledge base before had been a handful of collectors in Kentucky, and then what I gleaned from Mr. Lipset, and his publication The Old Judge. Back then, in the 80s and 90s, I'm certain that there were 3 Wagner cards in Kentucky. (I still smile when I think of holding one for a minute, no slab, no sleeve.) And while I knew of 3 separate Wagners in Kentucky, my guess would have been that there may have been one or two more, ones of which I didn't know.

I think that 'new' collectors that think about grading, registry, and all of that presume that anyone with a Wagner would get it graded. That they'd post pictures here. But that is not the mindset of many of the veteran collectors. Although many of the veteran collectors will get first rate cards graded before selling or consigning them, a bunch of those fellows aren't yet ready to slab up and cash out. (Color up and cash out pun intended.)

Now I don't think Kentucky is the great resting place for old tobacco cards. The state has a fair share, maybe slightly more. And we definitely have the market cornered on ornery, contrary, hard headedness. But there must be a bunch of card collectors scattered about, that have yet to come to market. A granddad passes a cigar box of old cards down to a grandkid in the present, and that kid isn't gonna sell that box of cards because of sentimentality (and because he likes the old cards, which is why granddad gave them to him in the first place). I know someone who got cigar box of Topps cards, almost entirely 1955s, with a very few 56s and 57s. Think about 4 Clemente's all about EX. 3 Koufax's, all EX. A couple of that #2 card from 1955, and a few Mays and Robinson cards, Near Mint or Excellent. I think he got them from his grandmother eventually, when he was little and visiting her she'd let him look at them. I'd guess there were close to 500 cards. I don't know, but I'm fairly certain they are sill in that cigar box, none have been sold, none have been graded. All are in very nice shape. No rubber bands, no tape. Neatly stacked.

The old tobacco cards, the early candy cards, the 50s Topps cards... guys, there are these stashes still out there, UNGRADED and not for sale. These aren't treasures waiting to be found, most folks with these cards have some idea of their value. But they are off your radar.

[Rhotchkiss]

Here is article from 1982 about an auction that contained a t206 Wagner and Plank (the Wagner pictured in the article is my “Connecticut Wagner”, but I don’t think it was the one sold in this auction). Anyway, the 1982 article states there are less than 20 known. Clearly that is incorrect, but it’s interesting in light of this discussion; the article also states Wagner sued the tobacco companies.

I think there are 50+/- Wagners. I do not think there are hidden stashes and hoards that will double (even remotely enlarge) the population.

[chriskim]

I didn't expect there were so little pop of brown OM and brown Lenox. How many brown OM and brown Lenox did David Hall own back then?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It’s a very romantic notion to think of all these true collectors who are indifferent to the millions of dollars their Wagner‘s are worth, but I find it somewhat hard to believe. I also just find it hard to believe mathematically that after all this time only half the ones still in existence are known.

[Jobu]

I don't think we should include a discussion of 50s cards still in shoeboxes here. That is a much different topic for a number of reasons - lots more people were seriously collecting cards in the 1950s, it is two generations more recent than T206, between 1909 and 1950 there were two world wars and associated paper drives, etc etc.

I also don't think we have evidence of all of the Wagners and that there are some more out there - I think the the same when I see any low pop card.

However, the Wagner isn't just any low pop card. It has been making national newspaper, magazine, tv, and internet headlines (read: being talked about outside of the hobby) for its huge sale prices for what, 50 years? And with every headline, the people who aren't collectors but have a deceased relative's cards sitting in a box somewhere are more likely to see the news and cash in. I think this makes the chances of finding a huge number of unknown Wagners a lot less likely than it would be for another low pop card that no non-serious collector ever knew was worth a ton of money.

I went with 60 because I want to think that Steve and Ryan are right and the total number is a bit above 50, but I always push my comfort on how many cards I assume are still out there. And there may well be some 90+-year-old collectors who bought unknown Wagners before the 1960s when it seems that people really started keeping track of Wagners and their stories --- or some people in their 70s whose parents bought them and passed them down and who are still silently hanging onto them, but are there many more than 14 of these people? That seems like a stretch to me.

[Exhibitman]

I hope we don't get bogged down on Wagner and Plank, because the call of the question is broader. I personally know several collectors with unbelievable raw collections of prewar that they have been amassing for decades and that will stay raw until they are ready to cash out, die, or lose control of their collections due to dementia. They don't brag and they don't slab. I am not as clued in to others' collections as some of the more sociable people here, either, so I suspect we could collectively identify dozens of such collections. 20 years from now, most of them will be dead or out of the hobby, but as of right now, lots of 50-75s are still holding.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

What about the Blue Old Mills? there's what 2 or three of them?

[brass_rat]

Well said, Bryan.

I certainly do not believe that everybody wants to share their collection, scan cards, or grade cards -- some of the "known" Wagner/Plank evidence is indicative of that as well as any existing pictures are small and grainy or are copies from old publications.

I just think it unlikely that the true population of such high profile cards are 25-30% higher than long-tracked public totals.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I didn't expect there were so little pop of brown OM and brown Lenox. How many brown OM and brown Lenox did David Hall own back then?

Brown Old Mills are wicked rare. They are mistakes; they are scrap, we’re never inserted in packs and likely pulled immediately as soon as the printer realized they used Hindu Brown instead of old mill black. According to t206 resource (link below) they have identified only 14 of the possible 34 players who could have an brown old mill back, and in my experience, no player has more than two examples, including overprint and multi-print variations. I have like 10 of the brown old mills. I have not seen the other 4 and if the 10 I have, I know about half have a twin.


https://t206resource.com/Brown%20Old...Checklist.html

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Brown Old Mills are wicked rare. They are mistakes; they are scrap, we’re never inserted in packs and likely pulled immediately as soon as the printer realized they used Hindu Brown instead of old mill black. According to t206 resource (link below) they have identified only 14 of the possible 34 players who could have an brown old mill back, and in my experience, no player has more than two examples, including overprint and multi-print variations. I have like 10 of the brown old mills. I have not seen the other 4 and if the 10 I have, I know about half have a twin.


https://t206resource.com/Brown%20Old...Checklist.html

Thx for the info. Wow! you have 10! What an amazing collection! Congrats!

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by chriskim

Thx for the info. Wow! you have 10! What an amazing collection! Congrats!

Yea, I have started some really stupid, expensive and nearly impossible projects. This is one of them.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I didn't expect there were so little pop of brown OM and brown Lenox. How many brown OM and brown Lenox did David Hall own back then?

It's my understanding that Hall got one OM Brown, then told people that he wasn't going after them because they were an error and were never distributed. If that's true, then he only owned the one. I don't know about the Lenox Brown.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I didn't expect there were so little pop of brown OM and brown Lenox. How many brown OM and brown Lenox did David Hall own back then?

By accident more than he realized.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

[insidethewrapper]

The Cobb with the Cobb Back has really increased in numbers in the last few years with a couple of handfuls hitting the market out of nowhere. So who knows what is out there. Some guy may have put away 10 Wagners from the factory ???

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

The Cobb with the Cobb Back has really increased in numbers in the last few years with a couple of handfuls hitting the market out of nowhere. So who knows what is out there. Some guy may have put away 10 Wagners from the factory ???

Cobb w/Cobb back would be my dream acquisition.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

So who knows what is out there. Some guy may have put away 10 Wagners from the factory ???

Uncut sheets, maybe? But probably neither of these. What's the rate of newly known Wagners coming out in the last 30 years or so, since they started getting tons of publicity for bringing astonishing amounts of cash in auctions?