NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-13-2022, 09:56 PM
Smarti5051 Smarti5051 is offline
sc0tt_kirkn.er
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 179
Default

The defense points to Exhibit A, first sentence of description: "If there is any item in the field of sports collectibles that needs no embellishment, it is this historic piece: the final touchdown ball of Tom Brady’s career."

Though represented as fact that the ball was the final touchdown of Tom Brady's career, his final touchdown in fact occurred in 2023. As such, whether intentional or innocent, the factual representation is false. This representation was material to the contract, as the plaintiff notes the football is a "historic piece" requiring no embellishment, because it was represented to be the final touchdown ball of Tom Brady's career. Moreover, whether known or unknown to the parties at the time of the auction, Tom Brady had, in fact, been in negotiations with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to extend his career prior to the conclusion of the auction. As such, a material ambiguity concerning the consideration for defendant's promise to pay precludes a meeting of the minds as to what was being purchased, and an enforceable contract was not forged between the parties.

I would liken this to a Honus Wagner card that sells at auction for $2 million and is later deemed to be fake by a third party authenticator. At the time of the sale, the auction house and the buyer (and perhaps the seller) all believed the card was an original. The contract was premised on the card being an original, authentic Honus Wagner card. In fact, and unknown to all parties, the Honus Wagner card was not what the parties had bargained for. So, the buyer would be entitled to void the contract, even though the card that was listed could technically be provided to the buyer.

Common sense will likely rule the day on this one.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-13-2022, 10:03 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarti5051 View Post
The defense points to Exhibit A, first sentence of description: "If there is any item in the field of sports collectibles that needs no embellishment, it is this historic piece: the final touchdown ball of Tom Brady’s career."

Though represented as fact that the ball was the final touchdown of Tom Brady's career, his final touchdown in fact occurred in 2023. As such, whether intentional or innocent, the factual representation is false. This representation was material to the contract, as the plaintiff notes the football is a "historic piece" requiring no embellishment, because it was represented to be the final touchdown ball of Tom Brady's career. Moreover, whether known or unknown to the parties at the time of the auction, Tom Brady had, in fact, been in negotiations with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to extend his career prior to the conclusion of the auction. As such, a material ambiguity concerning the consideration for defendant's promise to pay precludes a meeting of the minds as to what was being purchased, and an enforceable contract was not forged between the parties.

I would liken this to a Honus Wagner card that sells at auction for $2 million and is later deemed to be fake by a third party authenticator. At the time of the sale, the auction house and the buyer (and perhaps the seller) all believed the card was an original. The contract was premised on the card being an original, authentic Honus Wagner card. In fact, and unknown to all parties, the Honus Wagner card was not what the parties had bargained for. So, the buyer would be entitled to void the contract, even though the card that was listed could technically be provided to the buyer.

Common sense will likely rule the day on this one.
I see this as a frustration of purpose case, not a misrepresentation case or meeting of the minds case. The problem here is something that happened AFTER formation. The issue is whether performance is now excused.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 03-13-2022 at 10:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-13-2022, 10:19 PM
Smarti5051 Smarti5051 is offline
sc0tt_kirkn.er
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 179
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I see this as a frustration of purpose case, not a misrepresentation case or meeting of the minds case. The problem here is something that happened AFTER formation. The issue is whether performance is now excused.
Assuming Tom Brady does throw another touchdown in the NFL, is the statement that the football is the "last touchdown of Tom Brady's career" true of false? It is false. Maybe not intentionally, but it is false. Had Leland not made that written claim in the listing, and simply said the football was "the last touchdown of the 2022 season before Tom Brady announced his retirement," then everything Leland said would have been factual and uncontradicted. But, in this case, Leland affirmatively stated it was the last touchdown of Tom Brady's career. Was the statement material to the sale? Clearly. So, if the entire contract is premised on this football being the last touchdown pass of Brady's career, and Leland represented it as such in the listing, the fact that it is not the last touchdown of Tom Brady's career precludes Leland from delivering the exact consideration represented.

A good lawyer for Leland would have put an asterisk after "career" and included a note at the bottom to the effect of: "Leland does not control nor make any claim as to the possibility that Tom Brady may some day return to play in the NFL and the representations in this listing are limited to past events and Tom Brady's representation at the conclusion of the 2021-2022 season that he has retired from the NFL. Any bidder on this item acknowledges and agrees that any future action by Tom Brady, including but not limited to returning to the NFL, will not void or alter the obligation to pay for this item."
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-13-2022, 10:26 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarti5051 View Post
Assuming Tom Brady does throw another touchdown in the NFL, is the statement that the football is the "last touchdown of Tom Brady's career" true of false? It is false. Maybe not intentionally, but it is false. Had Leland not made that written claim in the listing, and simply said the football was "the last touchdown of the 2022 season before Tom Brady announced his retirement," then everything Leland said would have been factual and uncontradicted. But, in this case, Leland affirmatively stated it was the last touchdown of Tom Brady's career. Was the statement material to the sale? Clearly. So, if the entire contract is premised on this football being the last touchdown pass of Brady's career, and Leland represented it as such in the listing, the fact that it is not the last touchdown of Tom Brady's career precludes Leland from delivering the exact consideration represented.

A good lawyer for Leland would have put an asterisk after "career" and included a note at the bottom to the effect of: "Leland does not control nor make any claim as to the possibility that Tom Brady may some day return to play in the NFL and the representations in this listing are limited to past events and Tom Brady's representation at the conclusion of the 2021-2022 season that he has retired from the NFL. Any bidder on this item acknowledges and agrees that any future action by Tom Brady, including but not limited to returning to the NFL, will not void or alter the obligation to pay for this item."
It's a weird case because the statement was true when made and when the buyer agreed to pay and the contract was formed. It becomes false by virtue of a later event. Is that a misrepresentation, or a changed circumstance excusing performance? I understand your point of course, it just feels like the latter to me. The contract was valid and enforceable at formation.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 03-13-2022 at 10:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-13-2022, 10:34 PM
Mark17's Avatar
Mark17 Mark17 is offline
M@rk S@tterstr0m
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,223
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It's a weird case because the statement was true when made and when the buyer agreed to pay and the contract was formed. It becomes false by virtue of a later event. Is that a misrepresentation, or a changed circumstance excusing performance? I understand your point of course, it just feels like the latter to me. The contract was valid and enforceable at formation.
You are also pre-supposing there will be another Brady touchdown. But 2 months from now, he might change his mind and re-retire, or worse, he could get injured and not be able to play again.

When you are saying the "last touchdown" is no longer a true statement regarding that football, you are essentially making a guess regarding future events.

I mean, conceivably, Barry Bonds could pull a Minnie Minoso, come back to play one more ML game, and hit another home run. So, the state of Bond's final home run ball isn't fully secure until Barry passes away.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-13-2022, 10:43 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,690
Default

Fair enough, but based on the very low probability that he won’t throw another TD, the ball is essentially worthless right now. Most cases are not decided on hyper technicalities or theoretical possibilities.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-13-2022, 10:46 PM
Smarti5051 Smarti5051 is offline
sc0tt_kirkn.er
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 179
Default

I see where you are coming from, but the statement was not ACTUALLY true at the time it was made, it was just not known to be false by any of the parties at the time it was made. The parties believed it would be the last touchdown at the time the contract was formed, but we now know all parties were unaware that the entire foundation for their agreement was based on a faulty premise. And, depending on the timing of Tom Brady's agreement to return, it is entirely possible that Tom Brady was not even legally retired at the closing of the auction, so even that material fact might have been false.

I think frustration of purpose could also work, but I think the easier path for the buyer's lawyer is to just use Leland's affirmative statements against it to void the contract.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-13-2022, 10:50 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,690
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarti5051 View Post
I see where you are coming from, but the statement was not ACTUALLY true at the time it was made, it was just not known to be false by any of the parties at the time it was made. The parties believed it would be the last touchdown at the time the contract was formed, but we now know all parties were unaware that the entire foundation for their agreement was based on a faulty premise. And, depending on the timing of Tom Brady's agreement to return, it is entirely possible that Tom Brady was not even legally retired at the closing of the auction, so even that material fact might have been false.

I think frustration of purpose could also work, but I think the easier path for the buyer's lawyer is to just use Leland's affirmative statements against it to void the contract.
That’s a good point On the timing.Indeed, I think your reasoning would also support mutual mistake. So will make all the arguments and prevail lol.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions.

My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-14-2022, 03:11 AM
Michael B Michael B is offline
Mîçhæ£ ßöw£ß¥
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,932
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
That’s a good point On the timing.Indeed, I think your reasoning would also support mutual mistake. So will make all the arguments and prevail lol.
In property law this is called condition subsequent. At the time of the sale the facts presented were correct. There was no false advertising as several have INCORRECTLY stated. It is an issue that arose subsequent to the transaction or presentation that changed the facts and thus how it moves forward.

The timing seems almost as if he knew about the ball and the auction. Despite his announcement we do not know if he filed his retirement papers with the NFL. If not, then the retirement announcement, was merely a grandiose proclamation. He stated more than once that he wanted to play quite a few more years. The man is not stupid. It could be a way to get more money out of ESPN or whomever was going to offer him an announcing contract. It may also be a way to keep Gronkowski in Tampa Bay. I believe he is looking at playing for the Bills.
__________________
'Integrity is what you do when no one is looking'

"The man who can keep a secret may be wise, but he is not half as wise as the man with no secrets to keep”

Last edited by Michael B; 03-14-2022 at 03:11 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-13-2022, 10:51 PM
Smarti5051 Smarti5051 is offline
sc0tt_kirkn.er
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 179
Default

In the Barry Bonds example, I think the statute of limitations would preclude any contract claim at this point. But, I do think when it comes to auction house claims involving the "last game" or "last" anything related to a living player, going forward you will likely see a disclaimer that the statements are based on information available at the time of sale and an express statement that the representations contained in the listing can be contradicted by future events.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-13-2022, 11:48 PM
NiceDocter NiceDocter is offline
Rocky Rockwell
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Jacksonville , Florida
Posts: 1,410
Default OKay then what about this

How is this different (of course it is somewhat) than an auction that sells something as "Unique" and then another one shows up right after the auction.... or top grade at PSA only to have another one grade higher right after the auction. Seems like your classic slippery slope to me.....
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-13-2022, 11:51 PM
pokerplyr80's Avatar
pokerplyr80 pokerplyr80 is offline
je.sse @rnot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: California
Posts: 3,915
Default

With no comment on the legal question about whether or not the buyer could be forced to buy the ball, isn't that the risk you run with something like this? There was already talk of Brady waiting for Tampa to sign or trade for another QB, then play somewhere else. And quite a few others have retired and came back, although probably not this quickly.

The timing was obvious unfortunate but I'd assume anyone bidding realized there was a strong possibility this wouldn't be Brady's last ever TD ball.
__________________
Successful transactions with peter spaeth, don's cards, vwtdi, wolf441, 111gecko, Clydewally, Jim, SPMIDD, MattyC, jmb, botn, E107collector, begsu1013, and a few others.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-13-2022, 11:40 PM
BobC BobC is offline
Bob C.
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,276
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarti5051 View Post
The defense points to Exhibit A, first sentence of description: "If there is any item in the field of sports collectibles that needs no embellishment, it is this historic piece: the final touchdown ball of Tom Brady’s career."

Though represented as fact that the ball was the final touchdown of Tom Brady's career, his final touchdown in fact occurred in 2023. As such, whether intentional or innocent, the factual representation is false. This representation was material to the contract, as the plaintiff notes the football is a "historic piece" requiring no embellishment, because it was represented to be the final touchdown ball of Tom Brady's career. Moreover, whether known or unknown to the parties at the time of the auction, Tom Brady had, in fact, been in negotiations with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to extend his career prior to the conclusion of the auction. As such, a material ambiguity concerning the consideration for defendant's promise to pay precludes a meeting of the minds as to what was being purchased, and an enforceable contract was not forged between the parties.

I would liken this to a Honus Wagner card that sells at auction for $2 million and is later deemed to be fake by a third party authenticator. At the time of the sale, the auction house and the buyer (and perhaps the seller) all believed the card was an original. The contract was premised on the card being an original, authentic Honus Wagner card. In fact, and unknown to all parties, the Honus Wagner card was not what the parties had bargained for. So, the buyer would be entitled to void the contract, even though the card that was listed could technically be provided to the buyer.

Common sense will likely rule the day on this one.
All due respect, I don't think your Wagner card example is the same thing as what is going on here. Now if it was later found that the football turned out to NOT be the actual football Brady threw for that last TD, then I think your point has some merit.

I know we have lawyers on here who are weighing in, but they are just speculating as well. Think of it this way, under whatever state's law is applicable, when is the actual transaction considered binding? I'm assuming it is when the bid is made, accepted, and the auction officially ended. Now there may be some wording in the contracts/terms of agreement that stipulate that the transaction isn't finalized and binding on both sides tlll the payment is made, and the item is received by the buyer, or maybe something else. But I really don't think that will end up being the case.

And what would be the result if things were reversed? Assume Brady hadn't announced his retirement yet, and was fully expected to play at least one more season, and throw many more touchdowns. The football was auctioned off and won by someone thinking they had just won a Brady thrown TD football. But then the day after the auction ended and the winner was announced, but before they paid the money to Leland's, Brady shocks everyone and suddenly retires, now making that the football Brady threw for his last career TD. So the consigner immediately calls Leland's and tells them to cancel the auction and pull the football. So now what happens?

And remember, this isn't like Ebay that merely offers the platform for buyers and sellers to get together. Leland's was specifically hired by, and working for, the consigner, not the buyer/auction winner. I would think they are obligated to look out for the consigner's best interests, and fulfill their contract with them.

Quite frankly, if Leland's decides to just cancel the auction and let the auction winner off the hook for some good publicity or whatever reason, they would immediately, and permanently, be removed from my consigning anything to them, ever!
Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
PSA 10 2000 SPX Brady RC--PSA 9 SP Brady RC Donscards 1980 & Newer Sports Cards B/S/T 0 10-18-2018 11:35 AM
Follow me EYECOLLECTVINTAGE Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 19 12-18-2017 05:31 AM
Need the follow '41 PB Sean1125 1920 to 1949 Baseball cards- B/S/T 3 06-18-2013 10:55 AM
Follow-up on EX-MT Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 21 05-02-2002 09:21 PM
Follow-up to all of the follow-up Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 05-01-2002 03:53 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:00 PM.


ebay GSB