Player-Managers

[Schlesinj]

Oscar Charleston served as player manager toward the backend of his career. I believe he said he would only play himself when he has the opportunity with the bases load or when RBI situations as he really only wanted to serve as manager at the time.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

Oscar Charleston served as player manager toward the backend of his career. I believe he said he would only play himself when he has the opportunity with the bases load or when RBI situations as he really only wanted to serve as manager at the time.

That may be, but he (nor any other Negro League player-managers) is not being counted in the 222 MLB player-manager's list I've mentioned. I understand that MLB baseball has recently decided to count Negro League stats as MLB stats in an attempt to try and make up in some way for the segregation that previously existed. However, despite those that feel that MLB, pre-integration, was actually playing in a watered-down league talent-wise because of the absence of black players, I look at the very low percentage of blacks playing in MLB still today, and feel that as such, the Negro Leagues were likely way more watered down than the pre-integration white major leagues were. And even though there were players with some obvious major league level talent playing in the Negro Leagues, I feel they may have benefited a lot more stat-wise from playing in what was possibly an overall much less talented league than their white counterparts. And as such, I'm not so sure that simply bringing across the Negro League stats that they cherry picked to count is fair and proper to the white players that have been pushed down or off all-time MLB stat and leaderboard lists.

Using that same logic, I'm sure there were Japanese/Asian players, as well as Cuban/Latin American players, back in the early days before baseball was integrated that had the talent to play in the majors, but didn't/couldn't for any number of reasons along with bias and possible discrimination. So why isn't major league baseball going back and cherry picking stats in those leagues to consider as comparable to major league baseball stats, and add them in as well, just like they did with Negro League stats??? Seems quite arbitrary to me that MLB decided to add the stats for only the one group/league.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by BobC

That may be, but he (nor any other Negro League player-managers) is not being counted in the 222 MLB player-manager's list I've mentioned. I understand that MLB baseball has recently decided to count Negro League stats as MLB stats in an attempt to try and make up in some way for the segregation that previously existed. However, despite those that feel that MLB, pre-integration, was actually playing in a watered-down league talent-wise because of the absence of black players, I look at the very low percentage of blacks playing in MLB still today, and feel that as such, the Negro Leagues were likely way more watered down than the pre-integration white major leagues were. And even though there were players with some obvious major league level talent playing in the Negro Leagues, I feel they may have benefited a lot more stat-wise from playing in what was possibly an overall much less talented league than their white counterparts. And as such, I'm not so sure that simply bringing across the Negro League stats that they cherry picked to count is fair and proper to the white players that have been pushed down or off all-time MLB stat and leaderboard lists.

Using that same logic, I'm sure there were Japanese/Asian players, as well as Cuban/Latin American players, back in the early days before baseball was integrated that had the talent to play in the majors, but didn't/couldn't for any number of reasons along with bias and possible discrimination. So why isn't major league baseball going back and cherry picking stats in those leagues to consider as comparable to major league baseball stats, and add them in as well, just like they did with Negro League stats??? Seems quite arbitrary to me that MLB decided to add the stats for only the one group/league.

I think the fact that the Negro Leagues were in the United States and there is more continuity with players that played in both the Negro Leagues and MLB is a main reason to consider them as part of the MLB. Can't say that for leagues in Japan, etc.

As you point out, there were Asian and Latino players that were capable of playing in MLB but didn't have the opprtunity at the time. But that seems to bolster the argument that an all-white league was less talented than it would have been, and stats may been artificially inflated compared to what they would have been with more competition.

The relative lack of black MLB players today may be more a function of the relative popularity of other sports like football and basketball rather than a sign that Negro League players would not have performed well in the MLB

[BobC]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I think the fact that the Negro Leagues were in the United States and there is more continuity with players that played in both the Negro Leagues and MLB is a main reason to consider them as part of the MLB. Can't say that for leagues in Japan, etc.

As you point out, there were Asian and Latin players that were capable of playing in MLB but didn't have the opprtunity at the time. But that seems to bolster the argument that an all-white league was less talented than it would have been, and stats may been artificially inflated compared to what they would have been with more competition.

The relative lack of black MLB players today may be more a function of the relative popularity of other sports like football and basketball rather than a sign that Negro League players would not have performed well in the MLB

NO!

You're saying there was more continuity with blacks that played in the Negro Leagues and then in MLB, so that's why it makes sense to include their Negro League stats as MLB stats? Okay, but then why include the stats of ALL Negro League players that never made it into the majors, or were done playing before MLB was integrated?

I can use the same argument for someone like Ichiro. He played in the Japanese leagues before joining MLB. So why shouldn't his Japanese League stats count as major league stats as well then? Or are you saying that black athletes are so much better athletes/ballplayers than Japanese ballplayers that those blacks playing in the Negro Leagues were all playing at a major league level and therefore deserve to have their stats listed right beside those of MLB, but the Japanese leagues aren't that good and don't play at a major league level, let alone the same level as the blacks in the Negro Leagues, and therefore their stats don't get counted as major league stats? And the same goes for all the Latin American players that played in other leagues before joining MLB as well.

MLB stats should solely be for play that was in what was defined as the major leagues, period! They do not by definition include stats in other or the minor leagues. The way I see it, the Negro Leagues were basically nothing more than a minor league that eventually fed players to MLB. Just like the PCL, which was basically the West coast version of MLB, till the Giants and Dodgers moved out there in '57. Yet you don't see or hear anyone pushing to have PCL stats included as MLB stats either. So again, why just add the Negro League stats to MLB stats, but no stats from any other leagues?

In the end, it probably all comes down to MLB being politically correct and kissing ass in light of the political and racial climate of today, and looking to appease a portion of their customer base. At the end of the day, it always seems to just be about the money!