And it's in, Ortiz has been elected to the Hall

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

What transformation? He hit 38 homers with the Twins in 715 ABs. The guy was a monster in the minor leagues. He beat out A-Rod and Griffey Jr in a home run contest when those guys were already in the majors..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrg...ustoP%C3%A9rez

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

What transformation? He hit 38 homers with the Twins in 715 ABs. The guy was a monster in the minor leagues. He beat out A-Rod and Griffey Jr in a home run contest when those guys were already in the majors..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrg...ustoP%C3%A9rez

Check your numbers. More like 1500 AB. 1537. But 56 HR. I think you missed some seasons, or something. Anyhow, the jump was pretty dramatic.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...rtizda01.shtml

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Check your numbers. More like 1500 AB. 1537. But 56 HR. I think you missed some seasons, or something. Anyhow, the jump was pretty dramatic.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...rtizda01.shtml

I should have said his last two seasons with the Twins. But the entire history of major league baseball is littered with sluggers who had dramatic transformations into home run hitters well before the invention of steroids. And Ortiz was hitting a homer about once every 6 games in his minor league career and it went to about once every 4.5 games in the majors. I'll bet this is pretty similar to most players who were known for hitting the long ball.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I should have said his last two seasons with the Twins. But the entire history of major league baseball is littered with sluggers who had dramatic transformations into home run hitters well before the invention of steroids.

7 years in? You may be right but remind me of some examples. I just remember Puckett having literally none his first year, and of course Ruth you can't really count as not an everyday player.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

7 years in? You may be right but remind me of some examples. I just remember Puckett having literally none his first year, and of course Ruth you can't really count as not an everyday player.

George Foster
Jeff Kent
Jose Bautista
Dante Bichette

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

George Foster
Jeff Kent
Jose Bautista
Dante Bichette

Yeah I should have remembered Foster he came out of nowhere. Kent had some big seasons in mid career but they weren't THAT different from a few he had earlier, looks like.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

7 years in? You may be right but remind me of some examples. I just remember Puckett having literally none his first year, and of course Ruth you can't really count as not an everyday player.

We’ll just call it the Manny Ramirez “effect.”

[SyrNy1960]

Albert Pujols Accused of Steroid Use: “I know for A Fact He Was,“ Says Jack Clark

https://m.riverfronttimes.com/newsbl...ays-jack-clark

No player wants to be a Jose Canseco and call out other players. Bro-Code will always exist. However, I don’t know the reason why Jack Clark called out Pujols, but he did. Wouldn’t it be great if we could give everyone some truth serum and really get the truth? Most of what we argue and debate is what we read and hear. Many conflicting stories. What is the real truth? Does anyone really care for the truth? Yes and no. Only when it comes to deciding who gets in or stays out of the HOF.

Like most have expressed, likeability does play a role in it; to where many will turn their head and look the other way for someone who is liked. I’m looking forward to all of the conversations when it’s Albert Pujols’ time for the HOF. Even if a video popped up with Jose Canseco giving Pujols a shot of steroids, most would say, “What proof do you have that it was steroids? Pujols said it was a shot of Vitamin B. What proof do you have? Pujols is a great guy! He even has his own foundation.” Again, everyone will spin it how they want to see it. Smoke and Mirrors.

In June 2006, Chris Mihlfeld found himself at the center of the biggest steroids scandal in sports history. Major media outlets claimed that he may have helped supply pro baseball players with PEDs. The frenzy grew, even as big-name players stepped up to defend Mihlfeld’s name.

Of course big-name players defended Mihlfelds. Of course when Jack Clark called Mihlfelds and Puhols out, they both denied it. No way they are going to admit it’s true?

I heard all of the talk back then about Pujols too. There are many articles out there about Pujols steroids and Mihlfeld steroids. Guilty by association? The opportunity was there; Mihlfeld was Pujols’ personal trainer.

Like I previously stated, I believe most are smart enough to know that those players we talk about having used PEDs (don’t need a positive test or a smoking needle to know that), and there are many others we don’t know about. We don’t know all who used; how much they used; and how long they used; and we will never know. People can put whatever spin they want on it, in order to justify how they want to see it, but we all know. Usually when a player is called out for PEDs, I’ll look up their stats. Yup, I can pretty much pick out the years they were most likely juicing.

[MINES_MINT]

@3Arod13:

Playing the what about game and diverting to Pujols (or any other player for that matter) does nothing to strengthen the argument for Ortiz because it does not erase the fact that he cheated.

Furthermore, unlike Ortiz, Pujols has never tested positive for PEDs and filed a defamation suit against Jack Clark who publicly retracted his statement saying that he had "no knowledge whatsoever that Mr. Pujols has ever used illegal or banned PEDs".

As I stated in an earlier post, Ortiz could have filed a defamation suit against the newspaper just as easily but chose not to. What reason would Ortiz have to not file a lawsuit other than the fact that he knew he couldn't win? He knew he was using banned substances and there was actual evidence to back that up.

Ortiz does not equal Pujols.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

What transformation? He hit 38 homers with the Twins in 715 ABs. The guy was a monster in the minor leagues. He beat out A-Rod and Griffey Jr in a home run contest when those guys were already in the majors..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrg...ustoP%C3%A9rez

In 2002, his best season in MN, his OPS was .839, his next 5 years in Boston, his OPS were .961, .983, 1.001, 1.049, 1.066.

Thats a transformation.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Jim65

In 2002, his best season in MN, his OPS was .839, his next 5 years in Boston, his OPS were .961, .983, 1.001, 1.049, 1.066.

Thats a transformation.

And this transformation has never happened to any other player who found himself in a new environment with new hitting coaches?

[bnorth]

We need more card pictures. Here is 3 Red Sox players "cards" that contain several cards.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

And this transformation has never happened to any other player who found himself in a new environment with new hitting coaches?

You asked what transformation, I showed you stats and you still don't wanna see.

Ortiz failed a drug test in 2003 and his stats skyrocketed the same year and you think it was the hitting coach? Unbelievable.

[lowpopper]

Originally Posted by Jim65

You asked what transformation, I showed you stats and you still don't wanna see.

Ortiz failed a drug test in 2003 and his stats skyrocketed the same year and you think it was the hitting coach? Unbelievable.

It was the butler with the candlestick in the conservatory

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

You asked what transformation, I showed you stats and you still don't wanna see.

Ortiz failed a drug test in 2003 and his stats skyrocketed the same year and you think it was the hitting coach? Unbelievable.

It is really not that unbelievable. We all have blind spots big enough to fly the Goodyear blimp through when it comes to our favorite player/grader/seller. It is what it is.