And it's in, Ortiz has been elected to the Hall

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ok, since you must have inside info-

Failed in what way?
For what substance?
The testing was done by who?
And since we know it didn't follow internationally standard protocols, how was it done? Methodology? protection of chain of custody?

Anyone can be an anonymous source, but to me they are not credible if they don't have that sort of information.

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

I heard a Papi supporter claim it was all Fenway Park effect. lol

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I heard a Papi supporter claim it was all Fenway Park effect. lol

My favorite was when one supporter said that huge mound of muscle was a dad bod.

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

I'm not saying one way or the other if he used or not, but he had a few injuries to his wrist(s) and didn't get consistent playing time. Whenever the Twins sent him back down to the minors and he played regularly, he put up the numbers. When on the Twins, he didn't get that. Even when he got to the Red Sox in '03 he at first didn't play regularly due to Jeremy Giambi taking away from his playing time and he didn't do much. It was only when Ortiz started playing every day, about two months into the season, that he started producing.

I read some article the other day that mentioned something about the Twins stadium at the time and the park playing a factor as well with him. Something about him always trying to pull the ball to hit a home run instead of using the whole field or something and that the dimensions for Fenway made it easier for him to use the whole field/hit home runs. I don't remember the details on that though but that was the general idea.

[Fred]

Doesn't this all really boil down to Bonds, Clemens and others not being really friendly with the press and the amount of deception with the players (look at Palmeiro, great example of deception).

I bet if Bonds wasn't such a dick with the press and he was a "darling" of the press, then he'd be in.

The guy was a MONSTER for the Giants. Incredible numbers and look at the respect/fear they had for him when they gave him 120 free intentional passes (and a total of 232 BB) in 2004.

Papi = nice guy = HOF induction.

Who'd you rather have on your team? A-Rod or Papi?
Papi = in HOF
A-Rod = less than 50% of the required votes for HOF

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Fred

Doesn't this all really boil down to Bonds, Clemens and others not being really friendly with the press and the amount of deception with the players (look at Palmeiro, great example of deception).

I bet if Bonds wasn't such a dick with the press and he was a "darling" of the press, then he'd be in.

The guy was a MONSTER for the Giants. Incredible numbers and look at the respect/fear they had for him when they gave him 120 free intentional passes (and a total of 232 BB) in 2004.

Papi = nice guy = HOF induction.

Who'd you rather have on your team? A-Rod or Papi?
Papi = in HOF
A-Rod = less than 50% of the required votes for HOF

That's absolutely what this boils down to though, in the case of Bonds (domestic violence) and Roger Clemens (Mindy McCready), it's not just "well, he was mean to the press" that they dislike them for.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Fred

Doesn't this all really boil down to Bonds, Clemens and others not being really friendly with the press and the amount of deception with the players (look at Palmeiro, great example of deception).

I bet if Bonds wasn't such a dick with the press and he was a "darling" of the press, then he'd be in.

The guy was a MONSTER for the Giants. Incredible numbers and look at the respect/fear they had for him when they gave him 120 free intentional passes (and a total of 232 BB) in 2004.

Papi = nice guy = HOF induction.

Who'd you rather have on your team? A-Rod or Papi?
Papi = in HOF
A-Rod = less than 50% of the required votes for HOF

I would take A-Roid of Ortiz any day of the week.

Off topic like several posts. Since Alex played a little more than half his career at 3B. Career wise is he considered a shortstop or third baseman? If third baseman were does he fit on the all time best list for third basemen? Top 3 are easy with Mike Schmidt first. Wade Boggs and Eddie Mathews are second and third with no wrong order for those 2 legends. With only half his career at third I can't see Alex ahead of those 3.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Off topic like several posts. Since Alex played a little more than half his career at 3B. Career wise is he considered a shortstop or third baseman? If third baseman were does he fit on the all time best list for third basemen? Top 3 are easy with Mike Schmidt first. Wade Boggs and Eddie Mathews are second and third with no wrong order for those 2 legends. With only half his career at third I can't see Alex ahead of those 3.

Tough to say. I would say, at their peaks, Alex was better than Schmidt at 3B. Career-wise, Schmidt at 3B is ahead of Alex. But Alex also has half a career as the best SS of all-time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BCauley

I'm not saying one way or the other if he used or not, but he had a few injuries to his wrist(s) and didn't get consistent playing time. Whenever the Twins sent him back down to the minors and he played regularly, he put up the numbers. When on the Twins, he didn't get that. Even when he got to the Red Sox in '03 he at first didn't play regularly due to Jeremy Giambi taking away from his playing time and he didn't do much. It was only when Ortiz started playing every day, about two months into the season, that he started producing.

I read some article the other day that mentioned something about the Twins stadium at the time and the park playing a factor as well with him. Something about him always trying to pull the ball to hit a home run instead of using the whole field or something and that the dimensions for Fenway made it easier for him to use the whole field/hit home runs. I don't remember the details on that though but that was the general idea.

Ortiz had maybe 50 more HR on the road for his career than at home. A lot more 2B at home though and a much better BA. This is for whole career and I haven't filtered out the Minn years btw.

[Misunderestimated]

This is all about the elasticity of the Character Clause. If Bonds and Clemens were as "liked" as Ortiz they would be in by now. And if Sosa's likability was what it was before 2004 he would be in by now. Same with Schilling before he went from being a paragon to a pariah. (I wouldn't want Schilling to speak from behind the podium at a HOF induction so I get it by now)

None of these guys -- Bonds, Clemens, Schilling or Sosa -- made in ten years. Now it gets even less transparent. They go to the "appellate" committee composed of an ever-changing group of former players/managers/owners. Unfortunately this is often just a smaller group of people that selects those players that they "like."

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

What transformation? He hit 38 homers with the Twins in 715 ABs. The guy was a monster in the minor leagues. He beat out A-Rod and Griffey Jr in a home run contest when those guys were already in the majors..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrg...ustoP%C3%A9rez

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

What transformation? He hit 38 homers with the Twins in 715 ABs. The guy was a monster in the minor leagues. He beat out A-Rod and Griffey Jr in a home run contest when those guys were already in the majors..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrg...ustoP%C3%A9rez

Check your numbers. More like 1500 AB. 1537. But 56 HR. I think you missed some seasons, or something. Anyhow, the jump was pretty dramatic.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...rtizda01.shtml

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Check your numbers. More like 1500 AB. 1537. But 56 HR. I think you missed some seasons, or something. Anyhow, the jump was pretty dramatic.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...rtizda01.shtml

I should have said his last two seasons with the Twins. But the entire history of major league baseball is littered with sluggers who had dramatic transformations into home run hitters well before the invention of steroids. And Ortiz was hitting a homer about once every 6 games in his minor league career and it went to about once every 4.5 games in the majors. I'll bet this is pretty similar to most players who were known for hitting the long ball.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I should have said his last two seasons with the Twins. But the entire history of major league baseball is littered with sluggers who had dramatic transformations into home run hitters well before the invention of steroids.

7 years in? You may be right but remind me of some examples. I just remember Puckett having literally none his first year, and of course Ruth you can't really count as not an everyday player.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

7 years in? You may be right but remind me of some examples. I just remember Puckett having literally none his first year, and of course Ruth you can't really count as not an everyday player.

George Foster
Jeff Kent
Jose Bautista
Dante Bichette

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

George Foster
Jeff Kent
Jose Bautista
Dante Bichette

Yeah I should have remembered Foster he came out of nowhere. Kent had some big seasons in mid career but they weren't THAT different from a few he had earlier, looks like.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

7 years in? You may be right but remind me of some examples. I just remember Puckett having literally none his first year, and of course Ruth you can't really count as not an everyday player.

We’ll just call it the Manny Ramirez “effect.”

[SyrNy1960]

Albert Pujols Accused of Steroid Use: “I know for A Fact He Was,“ Says Jack Clark

https://m.riverfronttimes.com/newsbl...ays-jack-clark

No player wants to be a Jose Canseco and call out other players. Bro-Code will always exist. However, I don’t know the reason why Jack Clark called out Pujols, but he did. Wouldn’t it be great if we could give everyone some truth serum and really get the truth? Most of what we argue and debate is what we read and hear. Many conflicting stories. What is the real truth? Does anyone really care for the truth? Yes and no. Only when it comes to deciding who gets in or stays out of the HOF.

Like most have expressed, likeability does play a role in it; to where many will turn their head and look the other way for someone who is liked. I’m looking forward to all of the conversations when it’s Albert Pujols’ time for the HOF. Even if a video popped up with Jose Canseco giving Pujols a shot of steroids, most would say, “What proof do you have that it was steroids? Pujols said it was a shot of Vitamin B. What proof do you have? Pujols is a great guy! He even has his own foundation.” Again, everyone will spin it how they want to see it. Smoke and Mirrors.

In June 2006, Chris Mihlfeld found himself at the center of the biggest steroids scandal in sports history. Major media outlets claimed that he may have helped supply pro baseball players with PEDs. The frenzy grew, even as big-name players stepped up to defend Mihlfeld’s name.

Of course big-name players defended Mihlfelds. Of course when Jack Clark called Mihlfelds and Puhols out, they both denied it. No way they are going to admit it’s true?

I heard all of the talk back then about Pujols too. There are many articles out there about Pujols steroids and Mihlfeld steroids. Guilty by association? The opportunity was there; Mihlfeld was Pujols’ personal trainer.

Like I previously stated, I believe most are smart enough to know that those players we talk about having used PEDs (don’t need a positive test or a smoking needle to know that), and there are many others we don’t know about. We don’t know all who used; how much they used; and how long they used; and we will never know. People can put whatever spin they want on it, in order to justify how they want to see it, but we all know. Usually when a player is called out for PEDs, I’ll look up their stats. Yup, I can pretty much pick out the years they were most likely juicing.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

What transformation? He hit 38 homers with the Twins in 715 ABs. The guy was a monster in the minor leagues. He beat out A-Rod and Griffey Jr in a home run contest when those guys were already in the majors..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrg...ustoP%C3%A9rez

In 2002, his best season in MN, his OPS was .839, his next 5 years in Boston, his OPS were .961, .983, 1.001, 1.049, 1.066.

Thats a transformation.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Jim65

In 2002, his best season in MN, his OPS was .839, his next 5 years in Boston, his OPS were .961, .983, 1.001, 1.049, 1.066.

Thats a transformation.

And this transformation has never happened to any other player who found himself in a new environment with new hitting coaches?

[bnorth]

We need more card pictures. Here is 3 Red Sox players "cards" that contain several cards.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

And this transformation has never happened to any other player who found himself in a new environment with new hitting coaches?

You asked what transformation, I showed you stats and you still don't wanna see.

Ortiz failed a drug test in 2003 and his stats skyrocketed the same year and you think it was the hitting coach? Unbelievable.

[lowpopper]

Originally Posted by Jim65

You asked what transformation, I showed you stats and you still don't wanna see.

Ortiz failed a drug test in 2003 and his stats skyrocketed the same year and you think it was the hitting coach? Unbelievable.

It was the butler with the candlestick in the conservatory

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

You asked what transformation, I showed you stats and you still don't wanna see.

Ortiz failed a drug test in 2003 and his stats skyrocketed the same year and you think it was the hitting coach? Unbelievable.

It is really not that unbelievable. We all have blind spots big enough to fly the Goodyear blimp through when it comes to our favorite player/grader/seller. It is what it is.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

What he said years ago was that Minnesota had a particular style of play they wanted, and that he was told to work on hitting to the opposite field and for average.

Nearly his first times with Boston when he got out trying for the opposite field he was told "that's not what you're here for, swing away"

Just a story to fill a book? Maybe? But taking an approach that's more suitable to your skills and way of thinking is generally good for most people.

Look at his AB/HR across that time and beyond.
2001 16.83
2002 20.6
2003 14.45
2004 14.19
2005 12.78
2006 10.33
2007 16.68
2008 18.08
The years after are roughly the same without doing the math. Around 30 in about 4-500AB

His last couple years in MN he was actually a better HR hitter than he was in 2003 and 4. And really only had one outlier year where he was really a lot better. I think you'll find a lot of players who had that one crazy year. Maris and George Foster come to mind immediately, and they were probably not doping.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by steve B

What he said years ago was that Minnesota had a particular style of play they wanted, and that he was told to work on hitting to the opposite field and for average.

Nearly his first times with Boston when he got out trying for the opposite field he was told "that's not what you're here for, swing away"

Just a story to fill a book? Maybe? But taking an approach that's more suitable to your skills and way of thinking is generally good for most people.

Look at his AB/HR across that time and beyond.
2001 16.83
2002 20.6
2003 14.45
2004 14.19
2005 12.78
2006 10.33
2007 16.68
2008 18.08
The years after are roughly the same without doing the math. Around 30 in about 4-500AB

His last couple years in MN he was actually a better HR hitter than he was in 2003 and 4. And really only had one outlier year where he was really a lot better. I think you'll find a lot of players who had that one crazy year. Maris and George Foster come to mind immediately, and they were probably not doping.

Its not only about hitting home runs, Papi raised his OPS 100 points, then 150 points, then 200 points and it started the exact year he failed a drug test.

[icurnmedic]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Its not only about hitting home runs, Papi raised his OPS 100 points, then 150 points, then 200 points and it started the exact year he failed a drug test.

By this logic though you are essentially saying a player cannot improve based on hard work,practice and technical changes.
So the 750 ops hitter will always be a 750 ops hitter , period?

And I do think it’s probable he used. If you have been on a post HS sports team since mid 1980’s you realize it was/is rampant. There are some Players at all levels, who use and you would never know, because they never had the natural talent of a Bonds or Arod. To think otherwise is tomfoolery.

FWIW 1998 was the most entertaining season I personally ever enjoyed.
Thomas

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by icurnmedic

By this logic though you are essentially saying a player cannot improve based on hard work,practice and technical changes.
So the 750 ops hitter will always be a 750 ops hitter , period?

I'm not saying that all. But when a player spikes the exact same year that he fails a drug test, do we think it was due to technical changes? I don't.

My original response was to a poster that claimed Ortiz never went through any transformation at all. Then claimed it was because of a hitting coach.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I'm not saying that all. But when a player spikes the exact same year that he fails a drug test, do we think it was due to technical changes? I don't.

My original response was to a poster that claimed Ortiz never went through any transformation at all. Then claimed it was because of a hitting coach.

The hitting coach claim was not mine, it's from Ortiz book. And it wasn't a hitting coach, it was supposedly Francona. (Which yes, makes it shaky, because the timeline is a year off. )

The AB/HR stats are what they are. I didn't bother with going to thousandths or beyond.

An OPS difference somewhat early in a career is probably not at all unusual for a star player. I believe because OPS is affected by many things besides what the player can do naturally.
Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Reggie Jackson, Willie Mays, and to a lesser degree Mantle, All had 100-200 point jumps right about between their second and third full seasons. A couple others I checked didn't, Ott and Musial.

[Jim65]

Manfred never said Ortiz was a false positive. He said at least 10 of the 104 positives MAY have been false positives and Ortiz POSSIBLY could have been in the 10, as could have any player. No one knows who the 10 were since the records were destroyed. Those 10 were not re-tested because they easily reached the 5% failure threshold which triggered future testing according to the agreement with the Union.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Its not only about hitting home runs, Papi raised his OPS 100 points, then 150 points, then 200 points and it started the exact year he failed a drug test.

Nah...it's just pure coincidence this all happened when he teamed up with Man-Ram.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Nah...it's just pure coincidence this all happened when he teamed up with Man-Ram.

Total coincidence, of course.

To be fair, he no doubt got a bump in performance just being in the same lineup as Ramirez.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Total coincidence, of course.

To be fair, he no doubt got a bump in performance just being in the same lineup as Ramirez.

And Manny will never get any serious consideration for the Hall. Basically just written off as a dirtbag.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And Manny will never get any serious consideration for the Hall. Basically just written off as a dirtbag.

One played the part of the lovable bumbling buffoon and the other was his genuine arsehole self. Ortiz gets a big A+ for using the media to his advantage.