And it's in, Ortiz has been elected to the Hall

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by MINES_MINT

Manfred cosigning Ortiz for the Hall is just another blemish to his already questionable tenure as commissioner, and if you don't see the spin he put on this whole situation I'm guessing you've never hit a curve ball.

So, the world you wish to live in is one where a player, gullible enough to accept MLB's (Manfred's) word that a test would be confidential, have no consequences and, therefore, would skip over due-process, would end up "convicted" of a "failed test" and publicly shamed out of consideration for the Hall of Fame. Ortiz and the other players who were "tricked" into agreeing to be tested, participated in a key step toward getting the player's union to support driving steroids out of baseball (for the most part, at least). It seems to me you could replace "gullible" with "courageous" in my first sentence above.

[lowpopper]

Barry Bonds is king...HOF or not.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

So, the world you wish to live in is one where a player, gullible enough to accept MLB's (Manfred's) word that a test would be confidential, have no consequences and, therefore, would skip over due-process, would end up "convicted" of a "failed test" and publicly shamed out of consideration for the Hall of Fame. Ortiz and the other players who were "tricked" into agreeing to be tested, participated in a key step toward getting the player's union to support driving steroids out of baseball (for the most part, at least). It seems to me you could replace "gullible" with "courageous" in my first sentence above.

Ortiz failed a test. Nothing in your statement changes that fact.

[G1911]

Where was the outrage for the other players who failed in 2003 and are still being kept out of the hall? Ortiz’s actions are now “courageous” while every other roider is still a cheater? When these are the arguments to try and justify the obvious, you know there’s no logical counterpoint.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Wasn't Pedro on the list?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Wasn't Pedro on the list?

I watched Pedro give an interview when he was trying to sell his book. He openly admitted he and the entire team was on PEDs. It was hilarious because the interviewer was doing everything he could to get Pedro to STFU. Pedro just kept running his mouth about a specific time when the whole team took PEDs together before a playoff game.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I watched Pedro give an interview when he was trying to sell his book. He openly admitted he and the entire team was on PEDs. It was hilarious because the interviewer was doing everything he could to get Pedro to STFU. Pedro just kept running his mouth about a specific time when the whole team took PEDs together before a playoff game.

Everything I have seen from Pedro is a denial. Odd. I have seen him claim 60 percent of baseball was using, but not an admission about himself, to the contrary.

[G1911]

Where is this video of Pedro admitting to use?

His name, as far as I can tell, was on a 2003 list that appeared on the internet with no sourcing or validation, not the apparently valid leak to the Times that Ortiz’ test became known from.

Can sourcing for these allegations be shared?

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I watched Pedro give an interview when he was trying to sell his book. He openly admitted he and the entire team was on PEDs. It was hilarious because the interviewer was doing everything he could to get Pedro to STFU. Pedro just kept running his mouth about a specific time when the whole team took PEDs together before a playoff game.

I'm assuming you're talking about when Pedro said that before playoff games in 2004, the team would take a shot of alcohol and that Manny Ramirez would put Viagra in them. Something that is not banned and enhances a different kind of performance.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by BCauley

I'm assuming you're talking about when Pedro said that before playoff games in 2004, the team would take a shot of alcohol and that Manny Ramirez would put Viagra in them. Something that is not banned and enhances a different kind of performance.

Yes and no. The version I watched he also talked about some type of PED Manny was bringing back from the DR and was also putting in it.

EDIT: To add, I don't care if he did PEDs I just don't like that he got in and arguably the GOAT pitcher and one of the best offensive players off all time didn't. Hell I think PEDs should be mandatory as it was a much better game when they didn't have to hide it and do untested PEDs that don't show up in tests like they do now.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Ortiz failed a test. Nothing in your statement changes that fact.

Ok, since you must have inside info-

Failed in what way?
For what substance?
The testing was done by who?
And since we know it didn't follow internationally standard protocols, how was it done? Methodology? protection of chain of custody?

Anyone can be an anonymous source, but to me they are not credible if they don't have that sort of information.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ok, since you must have inside info-

Failed in what way?
For what substance?
The testing was done by who?
And since we know it didn't follow internationally standard protocols, how was it done? Methodology? protection of chain of custody?

Anyone can be an anonymous source, but to me they are not credible if they don't have that sort of information.

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

I heard a Papi supporter claim it was all Fenway Park effect. lol

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I heard a Papi supporter claim it was all Fenway Park effect. lol

My favorite was when one supporter said that huge mound of muscle was a dad bod.

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

I'm not saying one way or the other if he used or not, but he had a few injuries to his wrist(s) and didn't get consistent playing time. Whenever the Twins sent him back down to the minors and he played regularly, he put up the numbers. When on the Twins, he didn't get that. Even when he got to the Red Sox in '03 he at first didn't play regularly due to Jeremy Giambi taking away from his playing time and he didn't do much. It was only when Ortiz started playing every day, about two months into the season, that he started producing.

I read some article the other day that mentioned something about the Twins stadium at the time and the park playing a factor as well with him. Something about him always trying to pull the ball to hit a home run instead of using the whole field or something and that the dimensions for Fenway made it easier for him to use the whole field/hit home runs. I don't remember the details on that though but that was the general idea.

[Fred]

Doesn't this all really boil down to Bonds, Clemens and others not being really friendly with the press and the amount of deception with the players (look at Palmeiro, great example of deception).

I bet if Bonds wasn't such a dick with the press and he was a "darling" of the press, then he'd be in.

The guy was a MONSTER for the Giants. Incredible numbers and look at the respect/fear they had for him when they gave him 120 free intentional passes (and a total of 232 BB) in 2004.

Papi = nice guy = HOF induction.

Who'd you rather have on your team? A-Rod or Papi?
Papi = in HOF
A-Rod = less than 50% of the required votes for HOF

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Fred

Doesn't this all really boil down to Bonds, Clemens and others not being really friendly with the press and the amount of deception with the players (look at Palmeiro, great example of deception).

I bet if Bonds wasn't such a dick with the press and he was a "darling" of the press, then he'd be in.

The guy was a MONSTER for the Giants. Incredible numbers and look at the respect/fear they had for him when they gave him 120 free intentional passes (and a total of 232 BB) in 2004.

Papi = nice guy = HOF induction.

Who'd you rather have on your team? A-Rod or Papi?
Papi = in HOF
A-Rod = less than 50% of the required votes for HOF

That's absolutely what this boils down to though, in the case of Bonds (domestic violence) and Roger Clemens (Mindy McCready), it's not just "well, he was mean to the press" that they dislike them for.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Fred

Doesn't this all really boil down to Bonds, Clemens and others not being really friendly with the press and the amount of deception with the players (look at Palmeiro, great example of deception).

I bet if Bonds wasn't such a dick with the press and he was a "darling" of the press, then he'd be in.

The guy was a MONSTER for the Giants. Incredible numbers and look at the respect/fear they had for him when they gave him 120 free intentional passes (and a total of 232 BB) in 2004.

Papi = nice guy = HOF induction.

Who'd you rather have on your team? A-Rod or Papi?
Papi = in HOF
A-Rod = less than 50% of the required votes for HOF

I would take A-Roid of Ortiz any day of the week.

Off topic like several posts. Since Alex played a little more than half his career at 3B. Career wise is he considered a shortstop or third baseman? If third baseman were does he fit on the all time best list for third basemen? Top 3 are easy with Mike Schmidt first. Wade Boggs and Eddie Mathews are second and third with no wrong order for those 2 legends. With only half his career at third I can't see Alex ahead of those 3.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BCauley

I'm not saying one way or the other if he used or not, but he had a few injuries to his wrist(s) and didn't get consistent playing time. Whenever the Twins sent him back down to the minors and he played regularly, he put up the numbers. When on the Twins, he didn't get that. Even when he got to the Red Sox in '03 he at first didn't play regularly due to Jeremy Giambi taking away from his playing time and he didn't do much. It was only when Ortiz started playing every day, about two months into the season, that he started producing.

I read some article the other day that mentioned something about the Twins stadium at the time and the park playing a factor as well with him. Something about him always trying to pull the ball to hit a home run instead of using the whole field or something and that the dimensions for Fenway made it easier for him to use the whole field/hit home runs. I don't remember the details on that though but that was the general idea.

Ortiz had maybe 50 more HR on the road for his career than at home. A lot more 2B at home though and a much better BA. This is for whole career and I haven't filtered out the Minn years btw.

[Misunderestimated]

This is all about the elasticity of the Character Clause. If Bonds and Clemens were as "liked" as Ortiz they would be in by now. And if Sosa's likability was what it was before 2004 he would be in by now. Same with Schilling before he went from being a paragon to a pariah. (I wouldn't want Schilling to speak from behind the podium at a HOF induction so I get it by now)

None of these guys -- Bonds, Clemens, Schilling or Sosa -- made in ten years. Now it gets even less transparent. They go to the "appellate" committee composed of an ever-changing group of former players/managers/owners. Unfortunately this is often just a smaller group of people that selects those players that they "like."

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

What transformation? He hit 38 homers with the Twins in 715 ABs. The guy was a monster in the minor leagues. He beat out A-Rod and Griffey Jr in a home run contest when those guys were already in the majors..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrg...ustoP%C3%A9rez

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

What transformation? He hit 38 homers with the Twins in 715 ABs. The guy was a monster in the minor leagues. He beat out A-Rod and Griffey Jr in a home run contest when those guys were already in the majors..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrg...ustoP%C3%A9rez

Check your numbers. More like 1500 AB. 1537. But 56 HR. I think you missed some seasons, or something. Anyhow, the jump was pretty dramatic.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...rtizda01.shtml

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Check your numbers. More like 1500 AB. 1537. But 56 HR. I think you missed some seasons, or something. Anyhow, the jump was pretty dramatic.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...rtizda01.shtml

I should have said his last two seasons with the Twins. But the entire history of major league baseball is littered with sluggers who had dramatic transformations into home run hitters well before the invention of steroids. And Ortiz was hitting a homer about once every 6 games in his minor league career and it went to about once every 4.5 games in the majors. I'll bet this is pretty similar to most players who were known for hitting the long ball.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

What transformation? He hit 38 homers with the Twins in 715 ABs. The guy was a monster in the minor leagues. He beat out A-Rod and Griffey Jr in a home run contest when those guys were already in the majors..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUrg...ustoP%C3%A9rez

In 2002, his best season in MN, his OPS was .839, his next 5 years in Boston, his OPS were .961, .983, 1.001, 1.049, 1.066.

Thats a transformation.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Jim65

In 2002, his best season in MN, his OPS was .839, his next 5 years in Boston, his OPS were .961, .983, 1.001, 1.049, 1.066.

Thats a transformation.

And this transformation has never happened to any other player who found himself in a new environment with new hitting coaches?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you think Papi didn't use, what's your take on his transformation beginning in 03 from his Twins years?

What he said years ago was that Minnesota had a particular style of play they wanted, and that he was told to work on hitting to the opposite field and for average.

Nearly his first times with Boston when he got out trying for the opposite field he was told "that's not what you're here for, swing away"

Just a story to fill a book? Maybe? But taking an approach that's more suitable to your skills and way of thinking is generally good for most people.

Look at his AB/HR across that time and beyond.
2001 16.83
2002 20.6
2003 14.45
2004 14.19
2005 12.78
2006 10.33
2007 16.68
2008 18.08
The years after are roughly the same without doing the math. Around 30 in about 4-500AB

His last couple years in MN he was actually a better HR hitter than he was in 2003 and 4. And really only had one outlier year where he was really a lot better. I think you'll find a lot of players who had that one crazy year. Maris and George Foster come to mind immediately, and they were probably not doping.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by steve B

What he said years ago was that Minnesota had a particular style of play they wanted, and that he was told to work on hitting to the opposite field and for average.

Nearly his first times with Boston when he got out trying for the opposite field he was told "that's not what you're here for, swing away"

Just a story to fill a book? Maybe? But taking an approach that's more suitable to your skills and way of thinking is generally good for most people.

Look at his AB/HR across that time and beyond.
2001 16.83
2002 20.6
2003 14.45
2004 14.19
2005 12.78
2006 10.33
2007 16.68
2008 18.08
The years after are roughly the same without doing the math. Around 30 in about 4-500AB

His last couple years in MN he was actually a better HR hitter than he was in 2003 and 4. And really only had one outlier year where he was really a lot better. I think you'll find a lot of players who had that one crazy year. Maris and George Foster come to mind immediately, and they were probably not doping.

Its not only about hitting home runs, Papi raised his OPS 100 points, then 150 points, then 200 points and it started the exact year he failed a drug test.

[icurnmedic]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Its not only about hitting home runs, Papi raised his OPS 100 points, then 150 points, then 200 points and it started the exact year he failed a drug test.

By this logic though you are essentially saying a player cannot improve based on hard work,practice and technical changes.
So the 750 ops hitter will always be a 750 ops hitter , period?

And I do think it’s probable he used. If you have been on a post HS sports team since mid 1980’s you realize it was/is rampant. There are some Players at all levels, who use and you would never know, because they never had the natural talent of a Bonds or Arod. To think otherwise is tomfoolery.

FWIW 1998 was the most entertaining season I personally ever enjoyed.
Thomas

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Its not only about hitting home runs, Papi raised his OPS 100 points, then 150 points, then 200 points and it started the exact year he failed a drug test.

Nah...it's just pure coincidence this all happened when he teamed up with Man-Ram.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ok, since you must have inside info-

Failed in what way?
For what substance?
The testing was done by who?
And since we know it didn't follow internationally standard protocols, how was it done? Methodology? protection of chain of custody?

Anyone can be an anonymous source, but to me they are not credible if they don't have that sort of information.

It was leaked in a NYT story that Papi failed a test in 2003. Papi has since admitted he failed the test. Manfred said Papi failed a test, but the testing resulted in some false postives and he never disclosed what banned substance it was and writers should use their judgement when voting for Ortiz.

Papi failed a drug test. No inside info.

[MINES_MINT]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

So, the world you wish to live in is one where a player, gullible enough to accept MLB's (Manfred's) word that a test would be confidential, have no consequences and, therefore, would skip over due-process, would end up "convicted" of a "failed test" and publicly shamed out of consideration for the Hall of Fame. Ortiz and the other players who were "tricked" into agreeing to be tested, participated in a key step toward getting the player's union to support driving steroids out of baseball (for the most part, at least). It seems to me you could replace "gullible" with "courageous" in my first sentence above.

So in "the world you wish to live in" Ortiz is the victim, got it.

How about a world where people are held accountable for their choices and accept the consequences of their actions?

Ortiz cheated. Period.