And it's in, Ortiz has been elected to the Hall

[ullmandds]

Big papi may be HOF material...but certainly not more so than bonds/arod/clemens.

It's appalling. The whole world is upside down at the moment!

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Papi never tested positive in ALL the years after the rules were put in place. He's a deserving 1st ballot HOFer. I've never witnessed a better clutch hitter.

Having said that, I do also believe, Clemens and Bonds deserve to be in.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Papi never tested positive in ALL the years after the rules were put in place. He's a deserving 1st ballot HOFer. I've never witnessed a better clutch hitter.

Having said that, I do also believe, Clemens and Bonds deserve to be in.

That is proof how horrible the testing was.

[G1911]

Bonds and Clemens didn’t test positive in all the years the testing was in place either. It makes zero logical sense that Ortiz and Ortiz alone is forgiven while everyone else continues to be denied. Ortiz was nowhere near as good as Bonds, Rodriguez, Clemens.

This years ballot seems to have very little to due with the 2 dominating factors of recent history: statistical performance and steroid status. Ortiz is let in for no consistent logical reason, Schilling is denied because for the first time ever people want to invoke the character clause for off field behavior (can anyone cite any single example of a player kept out of the hall for off field behavior?) to punish outspoken political views the media writers as a group hate, Vizquel has a historic plummet over his much more serious off the field allegations.

Hell, how does Gary Sheffield get more votes than Alex Rodriguez? This ballot appears the result of different than normal standards and outright double standards.

[SteveMitchell]

For me the story is the BBWAA voters' trash treatment of Curt Schilling. Either he was qualified (close to it, finishing first in 2021 at 71.1% following years of 70% and 60.9% in 2020 and 2019, respectively) or the BBWAA votes don't amount to much. Seems like the BBWAA will punish Schilling with a lengthy wait because he's outspoken politically. The obvious HOF votes go to the BBWAA and when they miss one (like Schilling) it's due to ignorance or ignorance and bias. Haven't followed MLB since they went woke two years ago. All that's left of Baseball interest to me is its history including (to a far lesser degree) the Hall of Fame. Oh, of course, pre-2020 cards and collectibles.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by SteveMitchell

For me the story is the BBWAA voters' trash treatment of Curt Schilling. Either he was qualified (close to it, finishing first in 2021 at 71.1% following years of 70% and 60.9% in 2020 and 2019, respectively) or the BBWAA votes don't amount to much. Seems like the BBWAA will punish Schilling with a lengthy wait because he's outspoken politically. The obvious HOF votes go to the BBWAA and when they miss one (like Schilling) it's due to ignorance or ignorance and bias. Haven't followed MLB since they went woke two years ago. All that's left of Baseball interest to me is its history including (to a far lesser degree) the Hall of Fame. Oh, of course, pre-2020 cards and collectibles.

Curt Schilling advocated the killing of reporters in the United States. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on. That's not politics. That's called character and human decency.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Curt Schilling advocated the killing of reporters in the United States. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on. That's not politics. That's called character and human decency.

It more likely was a jackass in Curt's case.

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by SteveMitchell

For me the story is the BBWAA voters' trash treatment of Curt Schilling. Either he was qualified (close to it, finishing first in 2021 at 71.1% following years of 70% and 60.9% in 2020 and 2019, respectively) or the BBWAA votes don't amount to much. Seems like the BBWAA will punish Schilling with a lengthy wait because he's outspoken politically. The obvious HOF votes go to the BBWAA and when they miss one (like Schilling) it's due to ignorance or ignorance and bias. Haven't followed MLB since they went woke two years ago. All that's left of Baseball interest to me is its history including (to a far lesser degree) the Hall of Fame. Oh, of course, pre-2020 cards and collectibles.

agree.

[SyrNy1960]

@ MINES_MINT

- Playing the what about game and diverting to Pujols (or any other player for that matter) does nothing to strengthen the argument for Ortiz because it does not erase the fact that he cheated.

* My post had nothing to do with Ortiz. If you read any of my other posts, my take on the steroid era always has been none of them should get in. Period! However, they’ve already put some PED users in the HOF (Bagwell, Rodriguez, Piazza, etc.) from that era. So now my take on it is, if you let one in, they all get in. Period! Can’t pick and choose. Put an asterisk next to their names and call it a day.

- Furthermore, unlike Ortiz, Pujols has never tested positive for PEDs

* Neither did any of the current players in the HOF from that era (and in the past) that used PEDs. Remember, Pudge Rodriguez never denied it. Didn’t test positive. He said, “Only God knows’ if I tested positive for steroids.” Guilty! He played it safe, just in case proof would surface later.

- and filed a defamation suit against Jack Clark who publicly retracted his statement saying that he had "no knowledge whatsoever that Mr. Pujols has ever used illegal or banned PEDs".

* Of course he did. No physical evidence, lawsuit, money, etc. Still doesn’t make it not true. He did it only because he had no choice, because he wouldn’t have won in court. Pujols knew by doing it, it would shut Clark down. Common sense. No brainer. Happens all the time. This is why so many people don’t speak out against others.

As I stated in an earlier post, Ortiz could have filed a defamation suit against the newspaper just as easily but chose not to. What reason would Ortiz have to not file a lawsuit other than the fact that he knew he couldn't win? He knew he was using banned substances and there was actual evidence to back that up.

* I don’t disagree with you that Ortiz used steroids, so nothing more to add.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by G1911

Bonds and Clemens didn’t test positive in all the years the testing was in place either. It makes zero logical sense that Ortiz and Ortiz alone is forgiven while everyone else continues to be denied. Ortiz was nowhere near as good as Bonds, Rodriguez, Clemens.

This years ballot seems to have very little to due with the 2 dominating factors of recent history: statistical performance and steroid status. Ortiz is let in for no consistent logical reason, Schilling is denied because for the first time ever people want to invoke the character clause for off field behavior (can anyone cite any single example of a player kept out of the hall for off field behavior?) to punish outspoken political views the media writers as a group hate, Vizquel has a historic plummet over his much more serious off the field allegations.

Hell, how does Gary Sheffield get more votes than Alex Rodriguez? This ballot appears the result of different than normal standards and outright double standards.

Schilling will never get in after his evil rants. Far beyond the "character clause" with him.

[nat]

Schillings problem wasn't that his rants were political, it's that they targeted the guys voting on the hall of Fame. If you want to win an election, treating the electorate badly is a very poor strategy. (See, eg, both "makers and takers" and "deplorables", and note who didn't win their respective elections.) There are plenty of conservatives in the hall of Fame.

And this year in particular, his vote totals may be due, in part, to asking to be removed from the ballot. The hall declined to do so, but individual voters may have honored his wishes.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Schilling will never get in after his evil rants. Far beyond the "character clause" with him.

You might think it is a good thing that it is being invoked for the first time ever, but keeping him out for "evil rants" absolutely falls under the character clause, unless one is saying that the Hall should completely ignore it's own rules to keep out vocal supporters of the political opposition. Which.... Well, that's not surprising these days at all.

[Orioles1954]

Character clause and yet Cap Anson is still in. What a hoot!

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by G1911

Bonds and Clemens didn’t test positive in all the years the testing was in place either. It makes zero logical sense that Ortiz and Ortiz alone is forgiven while everyone else continues to be denied. Ortiz was nowhere near as good as Bonds, Rodriguez, Clemens.

This years ballot seems to have very little to due with the 2 dominating factors of recent history: statistical performance and steroid status. Ortiz is let in for no consistent logical reason, Schilling is denied because for the first time ever people want to invoke the character clause for off field behavior (can anyone cite any single example of a player kept out of the hall for off field behavior?) to punish outspoken political views the media writers as a group hate, Vizquel has a historic plummet over his much more serious off the field allegations.

Hell, how does Gary Sheffield get more votes than Alex Rodriguez? This ballot appears the result of different than normal standards and outright double standards.

Ortiz couldn't hold Bonds glove or anyone's for that matter. Kid Clank makes Steve Bilko look like a Gold Glover.

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by G1911

Bonds and Clemens didn’t test positive in all the years the testing was in place either. It makes zero logical sense that Ortiz and Ortiz alone is forgiven while everyone else continues to be denied. Ortiz was nowhere near as good as Bonds, Rodriguez, Clemens.

This years ballot seems to have very little to due with the 2 dominating factors of recent history: statistical performance and steroid status. Ortiz is let in for no consistent logical reason, Schilling is denied because for the first time ever people want to invoke the character clause for off field behavior (can anyone cite any single example of a player kept out of the hall for off field behavior?) to punish outspoken political views the media writers as a group hate, Vizquel has a historic plummet over his much more serious off the field allegations.

Hell, how does Gary Sheffield get more votes than Alex Rodriguez? This ballot appears the result of different than normal standards and outright double standards.

boom.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is proof how horrible the testing was.

Don't know how good or bad it was. I'm not a doctor or a steroid lab technician. But the testing did catch quite a few players and Papi wasn't one of them.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Don't know how good or bad it was. I'm not a doctor or a steroid lab technician. But the testing did catch quite a few players and Papi wasn't one of them.

Much better quality testing never caught Lance Armstrong. It usually only catches the players that can'i afford the good stuff. Plus when the test they only test for one or a very small number of PEDs. It is not a test that each time covers everything. That would be way to expensive. This is not a guess by me I have a 30+ year friend that works at the lab in Las Vegas that tests pro athletes for PEDs.

[egri]

My thought process used to be 'keep the juicers out', but when Bud Selig, and a lot of the other managers/executives who enabled PED usage (or at least looked the other way) started going in, I figured it was a bit hypocritical to keep out only the players.

[MikeF34]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is proof how horrible the testing was.

Did Bonds... so why the double standard.. maybe that Drug Lord has some pull in the hall votes

[Peter_Spaeth]

Take a step back and enjoy the moment, what an outfit, what a reaction.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/...t%20all%2Dtime).

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Papi never tested positive in ALL the years after the rules were put in place.

Bonds and Clemens both ended their careers in 2007 without a suspension or proven positive test from Major League Baseball.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Papi never tested positive in ALL the years after the rules were put in place. He's a deserving 1st ballot HOFer. I've never witnessed a better clutch hitter.

Having said that, I do also believe, Clemens and Bonds deserve to be in.

+1 agree with every word. Most clutch hitter I ever saw. And I am a lifetime Yankees fan. Finally, yes, Clemens and Bonds ought to be in.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Papi never tested positive in ALL the years after the rules were put in place. He's a deserving 1st ballot HOFer. I've never witnessed a better clutch hitter.

Having said that, I do also believe, Clemens and Bonds deserve to be in.

+1 agree exactly

[Collectorsince62]

I guess there is no more uproar about a career DH getting in after Edgar Martinez was elected. Personally, I don't think any DH deserves first ballot election. Defense matters. What's next . . . holders in Canton?

And what if Bonds and Clemens were elected? Would they even accept? Imagine the induction speech. Remember Enos Slaughter's opening remark?
God only knows what Bonds would say. It might be the first speech to get booed. How many fellow HOFers would skip the ceremony in protest? The sanctity of the induction ceremony would be in serious jeopardy.

[Shoeless Moe]

[QUOTE=Collectorsince62;2189736]I guess there is no more uproar about a career DH getting in after Edgar Martinez was elected. Personally, I don't think any DH deserves first ballot election. Defense matters. What's next . . . holders in Canton?

"holders"....hahahahahahahaa!!!!!!!

[triwak]

I'll "Buck" the trend here, and celebrate the 2022 class with some cards.

[Shoeless Moe]

Quite the average group there.



Give me Bonds and Clemens over any and all of them.

[jimtodd]

Originally Posted by triwak

I'll "Buck" the trend here, and celebrate the 2022 class with some cards.

Awesome, I wondered if there was a Buck O’Neill card in existence!

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by Collectorsince62

I guess there is no more uproar about a career DH getting in after Edgar Martinez was elected. Personally, I don't think any DH deserves first ballot election. Defense matters.

So you’d also agree that AL pitchers shouldn’t get in? After all, offense matters.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Collectorsince62

I guess there is no more uproar about a career DH getting in after Edgar Martinez was elected. Personally, I don't think any DH deserves first ballot election. Defense matters. What's next . . . holders in Canton?

And what if Bonds and Clemens were elected? Would they even accept? Imagine the induction speech. Remember Enos Slaughter's opening remark?
God only knows what Bonds would say. It might be the first speech to get booed. How many fellow HOFers would skip the ceremony in protest? The sanctity of the induction ceremony would be in serious jeopardy.

Although I'm a National League proponent, I don't have a problem with DHs getting inducted. Perhaps the voters should be a bit more scrutinizing of DH candidates than position players, and maintain a slightly higher standard for their induction.

I personally have a bigger problem with the number of Closers that have been enshrined. There are many more Closers than DHs in the Hall, and I believe the DH position is equally (if not more) important. Just my .02

[jimjim]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Papi never tested positive in ALL the years after the rules were put in place. He's a deserving 1st ballot HOFer. I've never witnessed a better clutch hitter.

Having said that, I do also believe, Clemens and Bonds deserve to be in.

Arod never tested positive either. Those high PEDs were able to avoid detection for years. Not having a positive test means nothing in my opinion.

[JustinD]

I am again very blah about the Hall and their decision to continue to rely on electors that try to take moral stances instead of electing Hall of Fame deserving members. I gave up on caring about them forever ago as it is not the Hall of Fame and should be renamed "The Hall of Fairly Good Guys We Like". I will continue to just think it has the same luster now as a Gold Glove and just view this news in passing each year and forget in a month.

If these things still get you excited and happy please enjoy, this is just my opinion.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I am again very blah about the Hall and their decision to continue to rely on electors that try to take moral stances instead of electing Hall of Fame deserving members. I gave up on caring about them forever ago as it is not the Hall of Fame and should be renamed "The Hall of Fairly Good Guys We Like". I will continue to just think it has the same luster now as a Gold Glove and just view this news in passing each year and forget in a month.

If these things still get you excited and happy please enjoy, this is just my opinion.

Agreed. I used to look at the Hall of Fame as a sacrosanct accomplishment for immortals. Now, I just view the Hall for what it really is...an annual media award.

[D. Bergin]

There were HUUUUUGE paper trails for ARod/Bonds/Clemens that doesn't exist for Ortiz. Wish people would admit that.

This coming from a Yankee fan that despised Ortiz when he played.

That said, I'm pretty beyond caring whether most of these guys get in or not. It's not like people are ever going to forget who Bonds / Clemens / ARod / Pete Rose, etc......are.

I prefer seeing the guys who are nearly forgotten by time and fans, get brought back into view to be remembered and celebrated after most people have forgotten who they were, and what they might have accomplished or sacrificed in their careers.

I'll leave it to others to argue whether they "deserve" it or not.

As an aside, I've been to about 20 Boxing Hall of Fame inductions over the years. I gave up being upset about somebody getting in, that I thought didn't "deserve" it, when I saw how much it meant to the families and the many surviving boxers who had been beaten up and forgotten by time.

I'm not going to tell anybody that Harold Baines doesn't "deserve" to be in the HOF, just because Barry Bonds's head swelled to the size of a basketball over the course of his career.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Big papi may be HOF material...but certainly not more so than bonds/arod/clemens.

It's appalling. The whole world is upside down at the moment!

Yep - I'm so DONE with these so called sportswriters and the entire process for HOF elections. effem

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Big papi may be HOF material...but certainly not more so than bonds/arod/clemens.

It's appalling. The whole world is upside down at the moment!

understatement of the year...