Observations while hunting for a Ryan rookie....

[deweyinthehall]

And when we think of Ryan, we can't left it unsaid that he is involved in one of the best baseball highlight films of all time when he gave a young and naive Robin Ventura what for.

[profholt82]

Ha! I suppose I got a bit defensive over old Mr. Ryan. Just a big fan of his. I was fortunate enough to see him pitch at Tiger Stadium in the early 90s when the Rangers visited Detroit. Other than him getting a bunch of strikeouts, my most vivid memory of that game was when Juan Gonzalez hit a towering foul ball that landed on the roof above our heads in right field. I can still hear that clang. Haha
Also, I recall being disappointed that Julio Franco didn't play. While I was a Tigers fan first and foremost, what kid didn't love seeing Franco's unique batting stance?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

And when we think of Ryan, we can't left it unsaid that he is involved in one of the best baseball highlight films of all time when he gave a young and naive Robin Ventura what for.

Most famous "noogies" of all time

[Exhibitman]

We are all just primates and we naturally are drawn to the alpha males. In all sports that manifests in the allure of physical power. The 500 foot home run, the slam dunk, a slapshot goal, a knockout. All of the 'overrated' athletes have power in common. My favorite basketball player is Wilt Chamberlain. He holds most of the scoring records in the NBA and is the greatest force of all time by a staggering margin. First in career rebounding % (him and Russell are 25% better than the next leaders). Led the league in Win Shares 8 straight years and is #2 alltime (Russell is 20th). #2 alltime in scoring %. He's Goliath come to life. We had a big debate on the boxing page over Tyson. There are probably 8-10 heavyweights with better resumes than Tyson (he lost to two guys who are better than him by all objective measures, Holyfield and Lewis) yet his card valuations are second to Ali. It's the power. All the collectors who came of age during his reign remember the savage KOs (against mostly tomato cans, but that doesn't seem to bother them). Joe Louis, who was a much better fighter (Louis and Ali are neck and neck for GOAT), is far behind Ali and Tyson in collecting terms. One of the iconic postwar cards is Jim Brown's RC. He was the personification of a smashmouth fullback who led the league in rushing every year of his career except one and still is the alltime record holder for yards per game. At his best he just ran through defenders. There are objectively better backs but none with the aura he has.

When he was on Ryan was the most dominant pitcher I ever saw. I watched him throw a complete game shutout (one of 61 he had) and never saw a pitcher make an entire team look amateurish like that. That ability to dominate your foe is manna to our monkey-minds and makes legends.

I still need the damn rookie card.

[jayshum]

For anyone into WAR, these are the numbers for the pitchers mentioned in the thread as well as some others from the same time period. Seaver is far and away the highest. I didn't realize Blyleven would be that high or that Palmer would be that low.

Seaver 109.9
Phil Niekro 95.9
Blyleven 94.5
Carlton 90.2
Perry 90.0
Jenkins 84.1
Gibson 89.1
Ryan 81.3
Rick Reuschel 69.5
Palmer 68.5
Sutton 66.7

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by jayshum

For anyone into WAR, these are the numbers for the pitchers mentioned in the thread as well as some others from the same time period. Seaver is far and away the highest. I didn't realize Blyleven would be that high or that Palmer would be that low.

Seaver 109.9
Phil Niekro 95.9
Blyleven 94.5
Carlton 90.2
Perry 90.0
Jenkins 84.1
Gibson 89.1
Ryan 81.3
Rick Reuschel 69.5
Palmer 68.5
Sutton 66.7

I'm not a stat guy, but my uneducated guess as to the difference between Blyleven and Palmer could be - each was very good, with Palmer certainly better, but Blyleven pitched primarily for weaker clubs, thus making his contributions stand out more noticeably. Palmer, pitching for some outstanding clubs (with other outstanding players) had to share some of statistical glory, resulting in a lower WAR.

Is this reasonable, or have I totally misinterpreted things? Genuinely curious.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

I'm not a stat guy, but my uneducated guess as to the difference between Blyleven and Palmer could be - each was very good, with Palmer certainly better, but Blyleven pitched primarily for weaker clubs, thus making his contributions stand out more noticeably. Palmer, pitching for some outstanding clubs (with other outstanding players) had to share some of statistical glory, resulting in a lower WAR.

Is this reasonable, or have I totally misinterpreted things? Genuinely curious.

I don't know enough about how WAR is calculated to be able to answer you. I know it is supposed to be calculated in a way to compare across seasons and different eras (high scoring, low scoring, dead ball, etc). Also, I think for pitchers, it tries to take into account the results that pitchers have more control over so innings pitched, strikeouts, walks and home runs factor into it more than wins and losses, ERA and other stats that are more team related.

[G1911]

Blyleven hurled over 1,000 more innings than Palmer and WAR loves the K, helps Blyleven a lot.

What I don’t understand is Rick Reuschel over Jim Palmer.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I still need the damn rookie card.

I have (had...) the full Nolan run, but just sold my '69 in a PSA 5 because I needed the money for something else and decided I could live later with a lower grade raw version of that card. For whatever reason I don't love it, it's probably my least favorite of the early Ryans. Blasphemy? Even a year ago I probably would have thought so.

[deweyinthehall]

Another 12 new ones listed today on eBay - to go with the dozen from yesterday and the day before, and the roughly 10 or so daily since I started this post - most in nice shape or better, and far too many laughably overpriced in BIN auctions, others less so.

This hunt is maddening - I love Ryan, one the greatest ever, all true - but man oh man there's a glut on the market now. I could see paying more than I'd like for a Seaver or Rose rookie - those are much rarer, but this is ridiculous!

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Another 12 new ones listed today on eBay - to go with the dozen from yesterday and the day before, and the roughly 10 or so daily since I started this post - most in nice shape or better, and far too many laughably overpriced in BIN auctions, others less so.

This hunt is maddening - I love Ryan, one the greatest ever, all true - but man oh man there's a glut on the market now. I could see paying more than I'd like for a Seaver or Rose rookie - those are much rarer, but this is ridiculous!

That card continues to surprise me. I was lucky to pickup a raw, centered EX-ish one for around $400 in 2019.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

We are all just primates and we naturally are drawn to the alpha males. In all sports that manifests in the allure of physical power. The 500 foot home run, the slam dunk, a slapshot goal, a knockout. All of the 'overrated' athletes have power in common. My favorite basketball player is Wilt Chamberlain. He holds most of the scoring records in the NBA and is the greatest force of all time by a staggering margin. First in career rebounding % (him and Russell are 25% better than the next leaders). Led the league in Win Shares 8 straight years and is #2 alltime (Russell is 20th). #2 alltime in scoring %. He's Goliath come to life. We had a big debate on the boxing page over Tyson. There are probably 8-10 heavyweights with better resumes than Tyson (he lost to two guys who are better than him by all objective measures, Holyfield and Lewis) yet his card valuations are second to Ali. It's the power. All the collectors who came of age during his reign remember the savage KOs (against mostly tomato cans, but that doesn't seem to bother them). Joe Louis, who was a much better fighter (Louis and Ali are neck and neck for GOAT), is far behind Ali and Tyson in collecting terms. One of the iconic postwar cards is Jim Brown's RC. He was the personification of a smashmouth fullback who led the league in rushing every year of his career except one and still is the alltime record holder for yards per game. At his best he just ran through defenders. There are objectively better backs but none with the aura he has.

When he was on Ryan was the most dominant pitcher I ever saw. I watched him throw a complete game shutout (one of 61 he had) and never saw a pitcher make an entire team look amateurish like that. That ability to dominate your foe is manna to our monkey-minds and makes legends.

I still need the damn rookie card.

Well said and I agree 100%. That's why we also like Mickey and Sandy. Power. Even though Mick struck out a gazillion times and Sandy took a few seasons to learn how to pitch. You came out to the park to see them perform more than all the other players on the field put together. The same for Bo Jackson.

We dig the long ball - and the strikout and knockout. More so than the stolen base, double play or winning a fight on points.

[deweyinthehall]

Public Service Announcement - for any of you looking for 1968's #177, look no further...and the item description even highlights the fact the card has "no flaws" - get it quick before I decide to take the plunge!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/35383242941...QAAOSwC29hxWnC

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Public Service Announcement - for any of you looking for 1968's #177, look no further...and the item description even highlights the fact the card has "no flaws" - get it quick before I decide to take the plunge!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/35383242941...QAAOSwC29hxWnC

huuuuboy, Facepalm on isle eBay....

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Public Service Announcement - for any of you looking for 1968's #177, look no further...and the item description even highlights the fact the card has "no flaws" - get it quick before I decide to take the plunge!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/35383242941...QAAOSwC29hxWnC

In a tux, no less.

I'm surprised the seller didn't mention SGC.

[deweyinthehall]

Looking at this now and thinking about it - good dealer whom I've bought from before. Do we think there is any chance this is a Milton Bradley version because of the yellow-looking back?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13397296476...53.m1438.l2649