Jacob DeGrom has almost no shot at the HOF, discuss...

[Snapolit1]

"Almost no chance" seems a bit hyperbolic, perhaps Scott's attempt at riling up a few Mets fans. I'd agree it will be difficult and unorthodox. "Almost no chance" would be Jeurys Familia or Gary Sanchez.

[Seven]

Comparing across eras is noticeably harder for pitchers than hitters IMO because how much the game has changed (especially over the past 20 seasons) when it comes to the hyper specialization of pitchers nowadays.

Even as far as the 90s we were still really seeing pitchers go deep into games, not as much as the 80s or 70s, but the Complete Game leaders were still finishing in the teens.

To the argument where people say the pitchers from "x" years aren't as good as the ones now, I call BS. Yes if you grabbed Sandy Koufax from 1965 or Bob Feller from 1938 and stuck them into the game, right now, as they were back then, they wouldn't be as good. The game is entirely different, they didn't have any form of modern training, nutrition, hell most of them worked second jobs in the off-season. Give them access to all the things that the players have today and I don't see why they wouldn't be dominant.

Hyper Specilization for pitchers is one of my biggest gripes with the sport. But the more these guys get paid, the more they become an investment, and now with all the new aged analytics, and everyone throwing 100 MPH with insane breaking pitches, these guys arms are falling off their bodies. Tommy John is the norm now, and it's a damn shame. I also blame how we handle sports here, having kids play baseball year round is definitely one of the reasons we see so many injuries, but I feel I've gotten off topic, it's a different discussion, for a different day.

I think Degrom has Hall of Fame stuff, but lacks the proverbial peak of a HoF pitcher assuming his career ended today. Like I said he would need to have a few more dominant, healthy seasons, which is possible, but considering his overall track record is unlikely.

[Snapolit1]

I think Degrom has Hall of Fame stuff, but lacks the proverbial peak of a HoF pitcher assuming his career ended today. Like I said he would need to have a few more dominant, healthy seasons, which is possible, but considering his overall track record is unlikely.

I don't understand the comment. Putting aside 2020, he's had one year of injuries, last year. Before that (2015-19 as a regular starter) he was averaging about 30 starts a season. What are you getting at with "track record"?

Seems to be a narrative taking hold that he's struggled within injuries his whole career. Which isn't true. That would be Steven Matz.

He won 3 Cy Youngs in a row and was well on his way to a 4th last year when he came down with injuries. So any "track record" he has of being injured started last summer.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I think Degrom has Hall of Fame stuff, but lacks the proverbial peak of a HoF pitcher assuming his career ended today. Like I said he would need to have a few more dominant, healthy seasons, which is possible, but considering his overall track record is unlikely.

I don't understand the comment. Putting aside 2020, he's had one year of injuries, last year. Before that (2015-19 as a regular starter) he was averaging about 30 starts a season. What are you getting at with "track record"?

Seems to be a narrative taking hold that he's struggled within injuries his whole career. Which isn't true. That would be Steven Matz.

He won 3 Cy Youngs in a row and was well on his way to a 4th last year when he came down with injuries. So any "track record" he has of being injured started last summer.

I don't know Steve, 3 Cy Young awards in a row sounds like a pretty good peak to me. But I get the point that if these injuries pretty much shut him down and reduce his effectiveness over the remainder of his career, it really hurts his chances. Almost like a reverse-Koufax situation. Just think how differently Koufax's legacy may have ended up being viewed had he switched and started the first 5 or 6 years of his career on fire, and then ended the last 5 or 6 years of it as not overpowering and very effective at all, just like he actually started his career.

Cory Kluber is another pitcher in recent years to have stellar seasons and win the CYA, but injuries and wear and tear to his body and pitching arm have made him mostly forgotten now as well. And when he finally had a chance to come back after a long injury layoff, his return didn't last for long, and he went right back out with injuries, and likely will never be what he once was as a pitcher. Same type of situation seems to be looming before DeGrom now. If DeGrom can rebound and get back to pitching at least near the level of where he was while winning those three CYAs, and stay there for at least a full season or two, that should really change his chances in a very positive way. We'll just have to wait and see how he does going forward.

[D. Bergin]

When did he win 3 Cy Youngs in a row?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

When did he win 3 Cy Youngs in a row?

i just took what Steve said and ran with it. I didn't look it up till now, but I think Steve was referring to the two Cy Youngs he did win back-to-back, and maybe that he was on pace to win a third in-a-row, had he not gone down with injuries. But you are correct, he's only a two-time CYA winner.

[Snapolit1]

Stand corrected. Two.

I am not doubting for a moment that if he doesn’t regain his form he almost certainly won’t be a hall of famer. Agree with that. Too limited a body of work.

But I do think if he puts together 4 or so very strong years and win another CY he’s on pretty good footing.

Honestly have no idea what to expect in 2022. If the Mets announced in January that he had some kind of surgery Id hardly be surprised. A strange situation where he seemed to be at odds with the team about what was going on.