Were T206 Wagner's Ever Inserted into Packs?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Carter08

One thing I was wondering is, and I am assuming all the different cigarette companies represented on the backs were not owned by the same company, did they all contract out to a company to make these cards? Were there any cigarette companies back then that said no and sold packs without cards?

All the T206 brands were owned by the American Tobacco Company. T206 is only one of many sets issued over ~3 years by many ATC brands and printed in a complex relationship with New York Lithographers. The American Lithographic Company, Brett Lithography and possibly others printed the ATC project cards. The rights of living subjects seem to have been procured by the lithography companies, not the tobacco company. The cards printed by these lithographers seem to have included sets done for non-ATC companies, but no individual set was issued to both ATC brands and brands not associated with the ATC.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by G1911

All the T206 brands were owned by the American Tobacco Company. T206 is only one of many sets issued over ~3 years by many ATC brands and printed in a complex relationship with New York Lithographers. The American Lithographic Company, Brett Lithography and possibly others printed the ATC project cards. The rights of living subjects seem to have been procured by the lithography companies, not the tobacco company. The cards printed by these lithographers seem to have included sets done for non-ATC companies, but no individual set was issued to both ATC brands and brands not associated with the ATC.

Very great and interesting point regarding the player likeness rights possibly belonging to the lithographers and not the actual companies issuing the cards. Do you remember where or how you heard about that?

[insidethewrapper]

JAY: Great article about Cobb's being found, but no mention of Wagner's being found, which would I think give more support that it was not issued in packs. Still wondering if any evidence exists that it was inserted into packs of tobacco.

[Carter08]

Thanks for the info gents!

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by BobC

Very great and interesting point regarding the player likeness rights possibly belonging to the lithographers and not the actual companies issuing the cards. Do you remember where or how you heard about that?

I'm pretty sure there's signed contracts/waivers out there of several of the boxers in the various tobacco sets, with the lithography company.

Not sure if there's baseball versions out there, or if the lithography company would have had a general agreement with the league instead.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by BobC

Very great and interesting point regarding the player likeness rights possibly belonging to the lithographers and not the actual companies issuing the cards. Do you remember where or how you heard about that?

The Neal Ball letter is about giving American Lithograph permission to use his image and there's a letter asking Boxer Dick Hyland for permission to use his image from Frank Fullgraff who worked for Brett Lithograph.

Neal Ball Letter.jpg

Hyland letter.jpg

[G1911]

The Ball and Hyland letters are the only ones I'm aware of, I'd love to see any others. The Hyland is a recent discovery as far as I can tell. The Ball letter suggests it is the lithography company, not the tobacco conglomerate he is giving his rights too. The Hyland letter is pretty explicit about this and makes no mention of tobacco whatsoever; he is giving his rights to Fullgraff who appears to be essentially the project manager of the card projects at this time.