SGC no longer grading t206s?

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’m 30. I started collecting vintage at 8 or 9. Pre-war at like 10. Which means picking up a T206 every couple months, because I was a broke kid. I remained broke until I was 25, which is largely why my focus was non sport and boxing more than baseball. My broke ass could afford a T218 sometimes.

Lots of kind, older gentleman helped to educate me and get me going and I am proud to have as friends. And lots still insist I am always wrong because simply I’m younger than them. Card collectors and fallacious argument go together like peanut butter and jelly. I’ve found men of insight and men of idiocy in every age group and segment of society. I’ve yet to see any evidence that age has much to do with it.

Most younger people in cards are in it for the money. This is absolutely true. I’m young and hip enough (I’m not hip, fine) to have spent significant time in the younger centered communities, primarily the Discords. They are in it for the money, they are engaging in market manipulation openly and some of them don’t seem to understand what fraud is. They leave a strongly negative taste in my mouth, but that’s like, my opinion, man.

However, I’m not sure this will be perpetual. It takes time to go through college, to start a career and accumulate enough wealth that one may be a true collector instead of a flipper and profiteer. I am certainly less affluent than most here, but I sit in a position of extreme luck and privilege to talk about buying $1000 cards and not really caring what they are worth on a hypothetical resale I’m never going to make. 99% of 30 year olds are not so fortunate and lucky. I think, personally, this is one of the worst impacts of money taking over our hobby, we are making it increasingly difficult for people to even be collectors at all. When our 60 year old members were 30, vintage card collecting was doable on a relatively small budget. It really isn’t so now. Even a poor beater T206 common is $25. Todays flippers are largely flippers because they need money, they’re supplementing income to get themselves going so they may improve their life and build a family. They may become collectors when they are 50 and are more likely to be able to afford it. I’m disgusted by certain business practices common among this crowd, but I can’t hate ‘the game’ too much. When you’re two years out of college and making 40K after taxes in Silicon Valley, you can barely afford to live, much less have children. ‘Stack those racks’ kids.

Not to be dark, but I think it is reality that an influx of young collectors is needed or as the aging vintage collector base dies out they will get pennys for the dollar on their stuff. What happens in 20 years if there is no such influx, and all that generation is reaching the end and they or their families are liquidating collections? Personally, I want the prices to crash so I can collect more, but I suspect this is a very minority view here. I’m not so sure older vintage collectors are really all that different than the Gary Vee worshipping guys lining up at Wal Mart. Many “collectors” are pretty open that their cards are part of their retirement portfolio or an investment. It’s just a longer flip, and that longer flip is a gamble that this influx of younger folks will be interested.

Nice, well-thought out post.

The thing that turns me off about collecting now, is that the "investors" treat it as a zero sum game. They are looking to make money (which is fine) and to do so means that they are always looking to profit from someone else's lack of knowledge. It takes away the camaraderie that used to make collecting so much fun. I recently went into a new card store near the Patriots stadium in Foxboro. The two guys working there didn't even look up at me when I entered (there was no one else in the building). I asked if they had any tobacco cards and got a snarky response about "oh, you mean like the Honus Wagner? No." I turned around and walked right out...

Unfortunately, it's getting harder and harder to find fellow collectors who are willing to just shoot the breeze and talk about the cards that they love.

[Rhotchkiss]

Nice post G1911. Thank you

Regarding this statement "Not to be dark, but I think it is reality that an influx of young collectors is needed or as the aging vintage collector base dies out they will get pennys for the dollar on their stuff."

Here is what I know, why I disagree, and why I have put a good deal of money into very old and rare vintage cards over the past 6+ years: I started collecting in 1983 and lived through the junk wax era, eventually getting out bc things made no sense (like now). I got back into cards in 2000, sold out in 2003, and got back into cards in 2015 (and still actively collecting). That is almost 40 years in and out of the hobby. The one thing that is true over those 40 years is that the good cards are worth more today than were in the 1980s, many by multiples and multiples, and each time I got back into collecting the good cards were worth more than the last time I collected. By "good cards", I mean HOFers and rookie cards of retired stars and HOFers.

40 years spans is a pretty long time. And Ruths, Cobbs, T206s, as well as Nolan Ryans and Frank Robinsons are more expensive now then ever. If history is an indicator of the future, and it often is, the "good cards" will continue to retain value, and likely increase, over the next 40 years. Well, that's what I am betting on.

All that said, sometimes I find it very hard to look at what cards are selling for and not think "man, I should just sell everything." Especially when I consider your thesis may end up being correct. However, there are two reasons I do not (i) l I would rather have the cardboard than the paper, right now and (ii) I fear if I sell something I will never be able to get ot back (or it ma cost me triple to get it back).

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Nice post G1911. Thank you

Regarding this statement "Not to be dark, but I think it is reality that an influx of young collectors is needed or as the aging vintage collector base dies out they will get pennys for the dollar on their stuff."

Here is what I know, why I disagree, and why I have put a good deal of money into very old and rare vintage cards over the past 6+ years: I started collecting in 1983 and lived through the junk wax era, eventually getting out bc things made no sense (like now). I got back into cards in 2000, sold out in 2003, and got back into cards in 2015 (and still actively collecting). That is almost 40 years in and out of the hobby. The one thing that is true over those 40 years is that the good cards are worth more today than were in the 1980s, many by multiples and multiples, and each time I got back into collecting the good cards were worth more than the last time I collected. By "good cards", I mean HOFers and rookie cards of retired stars and HOFers.

40 years spans is a pretty long time. And Ruths, Cobbs, T206s, as well as Nolan Ryans and Frank Robinsons are more expensive now then ever. If history is an indicator of the future, and it often is, the "good cards" will continue to retain value, and likely increase, over the next 40 years. Well, that's what I am betting on.

All that said, sometimes I find it very hard to look at what cards are selling for and not think "man, I should just sell everything." Especially when I consider your thesis may end up being correct. However, there are two reasons I do not (i) l I would rather have the cardboard than the paper, right now and (ii) I fear if I sell something I will never be able to get ot back (or it ma cost me triple to get it back).

I can totally agree with this.
And I'm coming from the opposite end of the hobby, it used to be - and fairly recently- that if I wanted a vintage HOF card badly enough that I could save up for it. (which I sadly didn't do) Some cards have appreciated so much in about the last 5 years that simply isn't even possible anymore.
And even many lesser HOF cards in major sets are enough to give me a bit of sticker shock. Like fairly common ones for around 300..... that were maybe 100 just 5 years ago.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Nice post G1911. Thank you

Regarding this statement "Not to be dark, but I think it is reality that an influx of young collectors is needed or as the aging vintage collector base dies out they will get pennys for the dollar on their stuff."

Here is what I know, why I disagree, and why I have put a good deal of money into very old and rare vintage cards over the past 6+ years: I started collecting in 1983 and lived through the junk wax era, eventually getting out bc things made no sense (like now). I got back into cards in 2000, sold out in 2003, and got back into cards in 2015 (and still actively collecting). That is almost 40 years in and out of the hobby. The one thing that is true over those 40 years is that the good cards are worth more today than were in the 1980s, many by multiples and multiples, and each time I got back into collecting the good cards were worth more than the last time I collected. By "good cards", I mean HOFers and rookie cards of retired stars and HOFers.

40 years spans is a pretty long time. And Ruths, Cobbs, T206s, as well as Nolan Ryans and Frank Robinsons are more expensive now then ever. If history is an indicator of the future, and it often is, the "good cards" will continue to retain value, and likely increase, over the next 40 years. Well, that's what I am betting on.

All that said, sometimes I find it very hard to look at what cards are selling for and not think "man, I should just sell everything." Especially when I consider your thesis may end up being correct. However, there are two reasons I do not (i) l I would rather have the cardboard than the paper, right now and (ii) I fear if I sell something I will never be able to get ot back (or it ma cost me triple to get it back).

I agree with you. There is a big difference between T206 Wagners, 52 Mantles and ‘normal cards’. That stuff I don’t doubt will continue to climb. But collections of 50’s material, T206 sets outside the top 10 cards, rare cards of common players, this is what I have doubts on.

T206 commons have generally climbed up, though after inflation adjustment it’s less than most think. I think this is so because there has been these generational influxes in past. My grandfather collected Goudeys and Zeenuts as a boy. His five sons all collected as kids in the 50’s to the early 70’s. My father bought me packs at Target in the 90’s as a young boy, and showed me the remnants of his collection (he sold most of it in the late 70’s to buy a stereo. Oops). We then collected together, to some extent still do (he doesn’t buy, but I show him my cards and we talk our childhood hobby every time we meet up). That’s almost a century of my family, father to son passing it along. I think that’s pretty normal.

I don’t think the next generation has this. They grew up without cards, or cards of Asian animated characters instead (not a criticism, just a different hobby). None of my classmates collected sports cards in my youth. Collecting physical things isn’t so popular in general among the youth, it’s a flipper flipping to a flipper who thinks it will go still higher, whether it’s cards, J’s, crypto or funkopops. Baseball continues to have its fan base age and other sports take the limelight. I don’t see a realistic scenario where your Wagner isn’t worth a fortune, but will anyone care about my T206 Joss once the collector generation ages out or sadly dies? I don’t know. In 25 years when todays Wal Mart flipper has achieved financial security and has surplus, they may look back fondly on their card flipping days and come to collect. Or they may not, just bouncing to the next buck to be made, how they got to cards. Will there be a market of younger people to take all the 52 Mantles that hit the block when that generation dies? I’m 100% sure there will be. But how about for 52 Sniders?

I don’t know the answer, and it’s different for me I suppose. A crash I don’t see as bad, I’m just spending beer money to buy the cards I really wanted when I was 12 and take a break from the serious things in life. I intend to keep everything but dupes until I die and my heirs dump my crap for $100 to a greasy pawn shop owner. But if I saw it as investment, I’d be dumping all my 50’s stuff, B tier cards etc. while there is a living market paying these huge prices for fairly common material. The marquee type cards, the top .01%, I’d hold, those are safe. I’d be pretty scared that it’s only the top 1% of 30 year olds that can even really get into vintage collecting much. The barriers to entry, large print runs of most stuff and that much of it will hit the market constantly when a generation ages away, would definitely give me pause. I think we’re coming up on the first generations that were not guided into cards by their fathers. I’m not sure there are enough new collectors to increase the size of the buyer pool as the current group of vintage card collectors begins to fade away in the next 20 years.

But then again, I’m wrong a lot. I’m the idiot who thought Clemente was overvalued already ten years ago.

[trambo]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Nice post G1911. Thank you

Regarding this statement "Not to be dark, but I think it is reality that an influx of young collectors is needed or as the aging vintage collector base dies out they will get pennys for the dollar on their stuff."

Here is what I know, why I disagree, and why I have put a good deal of money into very old and rare vintage cards over the past 6+ years: I started collecting in 1983 and lived through the junk wax era, eventually getting out bc things made no sense (like now). I got back into cards in 2000, sold out in 2003, and got back into cards in 2015 (and still actively collecting). That is almost 40 years in and out of the hobby. The one thing that is true over those 40 years is that the good cards are worth more today than were in the 1980s, many by multiples and multiples, and each time I got back into collecting the good cards were worth more than the last time I collected. By "good cards", I mean HOFers and rookie cards of retired stars and HOFers.

40 years spans is a pretty long time. And Ruths, Cobbs, T206s, as well as Nolan Ryans and Frank Robinsons are more expensive now then ever. If history is an indicator of the future, and it often is, the "good cards" will continue to retain value, and likely increase, over the next 40 years. Well, that's what I am betting on.

All that said, sometimes I find it very hard to look at what cards are selling for and not think "man, I should just sell everything." Especially when I consider your thesis may end up being correct. However, there are two reasons I do not (i) l I would rather have the cardboard than the paper, right now and (ii) I fear if I sell something I will never be able to get ot back (or it ma cost me triple to get it back).

Nicely said Ryan!

I'm very similar to Ryan within a year or two of each of his in and out of the hobby and I worked at a card shop at the beginning of what is now the junk wax era. I've seen the same things in that span. I also agree it becomes tougher to not see the dollar signs of the collection and liquidate. To me, though, the journey of set improvement is far more enjoyable than selling. I may change my tune, of course, in time, but for now and the foreseeable future, I'll stick to cardboard photos of dead guys that were pretty good at baseball.

[toledo_mudhen]

Just received the following response from Brent at SGC regarding the grading of T206s:


Hi Lonnie,

I can confirm with 100% certainty that we are still grading T-206 cards. There was just a simple misunderstanding in regards to a specific card on a customer's order that caused some confusion.

Brent Martin
Collector Support
800.742.9212
www.gosgc.com

[FrozenInferno]

I keep seeing the SGC video referenced earlier in the thread, are we talking about the Sports Card Investor tour of the office?

Because they never actually showed the grading room. They showed basically every department BUT the grading room.

The rooms full of college age looking people were the research and assembly departments. Identifying cards, prepping them for slabbing, shipping, etc. Nobody in that video was actually grading a card.

In a follow-up video where the SCI guy had some cards graded they actually brought out one of the senior graders (who was not present in any of the other rooms they visited) to explain why his cards got the grades they did and he was a middle aged guy who had been grading with the company for years and years. That’s not to say there aren’t 20-30 year olds in the grading department but I would almost bet anything that they’re not handling the higher profile or vintage stuff. They’re probably cutting their teeth looking at 200 of the same 2019 Topps base card and grading ultra modern stuff all day.

If you need to see 50+ year old people prepping and slabbing cards to be satisfied with the grading process well, I don’t know what to tell you.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Nice post G1911. Thank you

Regarding this statement "Not to be dark, but I think it is reality that an influx of young collectors is needed or as the aging vintage collector base dies out they will get pennys for the dollar on their stuff."

Here is what I know, why I disagree, and why I have put a good deal of money into very old and rare vintage cards over the past 6+ years: I started collecting in 1983 and lived through the junk wax era, eventually getting out bc things made no sense (like now). I got back into cards in 2000, sold out in 2003, and got back into cards in 2015 (and still actively collecting). That is almost 40 years in and out of the hobby. The one thing that is true over those 40 years is that the good cards are worth more today than were in the 1980s, many by multiples and multiples, and each time I got back into collecting the good cards were worth more than the last time I collected. By "good cards", I mean HOFers and rookie cards of retired stars and HOFers.

40 years spans is a pretty long time. And Ruths, Cobbs, T206s, as well as Nolan Ryans and Frank Robinsons are more expensive now then ever. If history is an indicator of the future, and it often is, the "good cards" will continue to retain value, and likely increase, over the next 40 years. Well, that's what I am betting on.

All that said, sometimes I find it very hard to look at what cards are selling for and not think "man, I should just sell everything." Especially when I consider your thesis may end up being correct. However, there are two reasons I do not (i) l I would rather have the cardboard than the paper, right now and (ii) I fear if I sell something I will never be able to get ot back (or it ma cost me triple to get it back).

From 1980 until now, there have still been endless people in the age 40+ range who treat baseball as America's pasttime. But given the significant changes in major sports' popularity here (especially with kids) since around the '90s began, you can't assume that the next 40 years will be the same.

Basketball and football rule the roost in this country now. Little kids care as much about playing soccer as they do little league.

I wish this wasn't the case, as no one else loves the ol' diamond more than I do. But it could make the future of baseball collectibles somewhat shaky, especially once my age group (47) starts to thin out

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

From 1980 until now, there have still been endless people in the age 40+ range who treat baseball as America's pasttime. But given the significant changes in major sports' popularity here (especially with kids) since around the '90s began, you can't assume that the next 40 years will be the same.

Basketball and football rule the roost in this country now. Little kids care as much about playing soccer as they do little league.

I wish this wasn't the case, as no one else loves the ol' diamond more than I do. But it could make the future of baseball collectibles somewhat shaky, especially once my age group (47) starts to thin out

I guess time will tell.

[kaddyshack]

I can concur with Lonnie. Brent Martin emailed me and said SGC is grading T206s, but not the blank back ones. I plan to submit soon.

Roy Z.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by wolf441

Nice, well-thought out post.

The thing that turns me off about collecting now, is that the "investors" treat it as a zero sum game. They are looking to make money (which is fine) and to do so means that they are always looking to profit from someone else's lack of knowledge. It takes away the camaraderie that used to make collecting so much fun. I recently went into a new card store near the Patriots stadium in Foxboro. The two guys working there didn't even look up at me when I entered (there was no one else in the building). I asked if they had any tobacco cards and got a snarky response about "oh, you mean like the Honus Wagner? No." I turned around and walked right out...

Unfortunately, it's getting harder and harder to find fellow collectors who are willing to just shoot the breeze and talk about the cards that they love.

I agree, personally I enjoy research and positive collectors helping each other, and don’t like the money side. It makes for a healthier, fun time when it’s done this way. It’s tough to find across generations I think, most collectors just want to talk about $$$. I like money because I don’t want to be homeless, I like cards because they take me back to my youth.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree, personally I enjoy research and positive collectors helping each other, and don’t like the money side. It makes for a healthier, fun time when it’s done this way. It’s tough to find across generations I think, most collectors just want to talk about $$$. I like money because I don’t want to be homeless, I like cards because they take me back to my youth.

I am an optimist and think you can collect and have a lot of fun AND still care about the monetary aspect. Even wealthy people (not me) think about the the money. The problem is a lot of people ONLY look at the money.

I have a lot of SGC cards as they came that way but I doubt I will ever submit to them again.
.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am an optimist and think you can collect and have a lot of fun AND still care about the monetary aspect. Even wealthy people (not me) think about the the money. The problem is a lot of people ONLY look at the money.

Certainly can, I don’t mean to insinuate others cannot combine the too. It’s a personal thing, I don’t like that aspect and am not too confident there always going to be a large pool of collectors to sell too. Cards are my break from business, my hobby that serves as an escape from the calculating. If it stopped being that, I don’t think I’d enjoy it so much. But that’s an entirely personal and subjective thing

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Leon

...The problem is a lot of people ONLY look at the money...

+1

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Eric72

..The problem is a lot of people ONLY look at the money...

+1

I think this is much less true with vintage, especially prewar. Very few people are buying 100+ year old cards purely for profit, just like I dont think anyone buys a Monet or Picasso solely for profit. They may be investing in the art, but I bet every Monet-owner proudly displays their painting and looks at it often with pride and awe. Once you get to the cards we discuss here, you likely have an appreciation for them, their scarcity and history, their relevance, etc. I think those people who progress from modern to vintage are investors who learn to really appreciate what they are investing in, and thus, take on attributes of a collector. And I do think people (perhaps many), of all ages, will walk backwards down the number line from modern to vintage; this is exactly what happened to me 30+ years ago

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I think this is much less true with vintage, especially prewar. Very few people are buying 100+ year old cards purely for profit, just like I dont think anyone buys a Monet or Picasso solely for profit. They may be investing in the art, but I bet every Monet-owner proudly displays their painting and looks at it often with pride and awe. Once you get to the cards we discuss here, you likely have an appreciation for them, their scarcity and history, their relevance, etc. I think those people who progress from modern to vintage are investors who learn to really appreciate what they are investing in, and thus, take on attributes of a collector. And I do think people (perhaps many), of all ages, will walk backwards down the number line from modern to vintage; this is exactly what happened to me 30+ years ago

I would put vintage baseball cards into the same general group with vintage art, coins, stamps, toys, comic books, and antiques in general. If these other collectibles continue to experience heavy interest, and appreciation (which is a positive gauge of interest) then the future of vintage baseball cards will be fine.

Nobody collects 1878 Carson City silver dollars for the sake of nostalgia, and same for tobacco cards. Nobody alive today saw Rube Waddell pitch.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I would put vintage baseball cards into the same general group with vintage art, coins, stamps, toys, comic books, and antiques in general. If these other collectibles continue to experience heavy interest, and appreciation (which is a positive gauge of interest) then the future of vintage baseball cards will be fine.

Nobody collects 1878 Carson City silver dollars for the sake of nostalgia, and same for tobacco cards. Nobody alive today saw Rube Waddell pitch.

Is the market for stamps strong? I found a book full of stamps from around the world, 1940 or so. Put it on eBay for $25. No interest.