Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Snowman is always right. Just ask him.

He even has a statistical algorithm to prove it. But don't ask him to show you, because he hasn't actually created it yet. And he doesn't really have the time to do it right now, unless you want to pay him. But even if you do, and then he does, it probably doesn't matter because he'll tell you you're too ignorant to understand it anyway.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by BobC

He even has a statistical algorithm to prove it. But don't ask him to show you, because he hasn't actually created it yet. And he doesn't really have the time to do it right now, unless you want to pay him. But even if you do, and then he does, it probably doesn't matter because he'll tell you you're too ignorant to understand it anyway.

Pretty much sums up our snowman on every thread, Bob. Since I have been here this is the fastest I have seen someone overstay their welcome however he is very amusing because of how serious he takes himself.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Pretty much sums up our snowman on every thread, Bob. Since I have been here this is the fastest I have seen someone overstay their welcome however he is very amusing because of how serious he takes himself.

LOL

Hopefully things will change, but the fact he got bounced off Blowout makes the the question others have asked as to whether or not he's a troll, more possible than not I guess. He's a smart guy, just wish he'd be a little more open minded and realize he's not always going to be right. Oh well. Guess we'll wait to see what happens. I just put him on "Ignore" myself and don't read his posts anymore. It's better that way.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

from MLB.com

"The formula

(H - HR)/(AB - K - HR + SF)
Why it's useful

BABIP can be used to provide some context when evaluating both pitchers and hitters. The league average BABIP is typically around .300. Pitchers who have allowed a high percentage of hits on balls in play will typically regress to the mean, and vice versa. In other words, over time, they'll see fewer (or more) balls in play fall for hits, and therefore experience better (or worse) results in terms of run prevention. The same applies for batters who have seen a high or low percentage of their balls in play drop in for hits.

That said, skill can play a role in BABIP, as some pitchers are adept at generating weak contact, while some hitters excel at producing hard-hit balls. For example, Clayton Kershaw finished the 2019 season with a lifetime .270 BABIP allowed, while Mike Trout ended the campaign with a career .348 BABIP."

My Thoughts:

The all-time leader of BABIP for starters over 1000 innings is Babe Ruth at .241, 2000 innings Andy Messersmith at a slightly higher .241, 3000 innings Catfish Hunter at .243 Those are all fine pitchers but none of them are in the running for all-time greatest status. So clearly BABIP, even to the degree it is controllable, isn't a perfect stat either.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by BobC

LOL

Hopefully things will change, but the fact he got bounced off Blowout makes the the question others have asked as to whether or not he's a troll, more possible than not I guess. He's a smart guy, just wish he'd be a little more open minded and realize he's not always going to be right. Oh well. Guess we'll wait to see what happens. I just put him on "Ignore" myself and don't read his posts anymore. It's better that way.

He seems to double down and then resort to putting everyone down in every thread in which his theories, which he presents as facts, are successfully challenged. He might be smart but he is not that bright.

[Carter08]

Maybe not the thread for this but why didn’t the yanks trot Ruth out to pitch more often? I assume it’s the obvious - to keep him healthy and batting and if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Maybe not the thread for this but why didn’t the yanks trot Ruth out to pitch more often? I assume it’s the obvious - to keep him healthy and batting and if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

From what I understand, Ruth didn't want to do both.

He should've said, "Pay me 2 salaries and I'll be a starting pitcher, and an outfielder." Of course, he ended up being paid more than the President of the country anyway......

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

He seems to double down and then resort to putting everyone down in every thread in which his theories, which he presents as facts, are successfully challenged. He might be smart but he is not that bright.

Well, that is where the troll reference may become applicable. LOL It would seem he deep down must really get into these back and forths at some level, unfortunately, maybe more so than just the desire and interest in discussing such topics themselves that we typically end up doing on here from time to time. In other words, maybe he comes on sites like this looking for the arguments because that is what his psyche wants and needs, and doing so over the internet, he can stlll remain removed, somewhat anonymous, and thus feel safe. Which is kind of the definition for being a troll when you think about it. LOL

For example, it was much earlier in this thread that he appeared to get frustrated when people pushed back and didn't simply accept what he was saying, or the implied or overt insults. So he clearly and emphatically stated he was done with this, which pretty much every intelligent, normal person would take to mean he was done with responding and interacting with everyone on this thread anymore. Had he actually stuck to his word, I wonder if he wouldn't have garnered a little more respect from the crowd on here. But instead, it was just a few posts later, and he was right back at it without missing a beat. So does that point to some deeper, psychological urge or need, who knows?

On the positive side, even though I simply ignore and no longer waste my time reading his posts, in looking at what others are posting ang saying in this thread, it appears he's finally admitting the he may have made same errant statements and that his statistical assumptions and conclusions may not in fact always be infallible. And if I'm right, good for him. He does have and makes some very intelligent and interesting points and comments. It's just that he doesn't seem to realize, or doesn't want to admit, that as good as statistical analysis can appear to be, in the end it is nothing more than a tool to hopefully allow someone to more accurately predict an outcome, like who's going to win the Super Bowl. Unfortunately, when their ability to predict outcomes like the winner of a Super Bowl begins to have some success, such people may then try to extend that tool to possibly use it for something else that is not a totally objective question, like deciding who the greatest lefty pitcher of all time is. That is clearly not an objective question, and has no absolutely certain outcome we can then actually measure the effectiveness that some statistical analysis may have in predicting it, at least not like knowing there will be an actual Super Bowl winner. And also extremely important (and maybe the MOST important thing of all), everyone knows, AND AGREES, on exactly what the definition of and how you decide on who the Super Bowl winner is. In the case of the greatest lefty of all time, we haven't even begun to decide on the correct definition of "greatest" yet, let alone the actual measures we will then use to POSSIBLY decide an answer, if it can even be done. And untill that has been determined, everything is just someone's opinion, INCLUDING someone's statistical analysis.

And in regards to referring to statistics as just a tool.........

A statistician's wife has been bugging him for weeks to replace a light fixture on the ceiling, and he's finally going to get around to doing it (And without her having to pay him to do so, go figure!). Unfortunately, he needs a screwdriver to remove a few screws to get the job done, but doesn't have one. Well, he's up on the ladder already, so before getting down and then having to drive all the way to the store to buy a screwdriver, he goes digging around in his pocket and finds his penknife, and promptly uses that to remove the screws and complete the task. So he gets the job done using a tool that wasn't actually meant for what he ended up using it for. But he took a chance on guessing it might work and got lucky, like he got lucky to also just happen to have the penknife in his pocket when he most needed it to begin with. But before you go applauding the statistician for his fine work in completing the given task, and he triumphantly goes riding off into the sunset on his noble, white steed, with his beautiful and now forever grateful wife astride behind him, I have to finish the rest of the story.

Turns out that for maybe what little the statistician knew about tools, he knew even less about electricty. For while using his penknife to remove the screws and then replace the light fixture, he accidently knicked some wires in the ceiling and unknowingly got them crossed. So once he had the fixture replaced, he joyously called his wife to come and flip the switch to see the new fixture working, and what a great job he had done. Unfortunately, the knicked and crossed wires created a short, which blew out the fuse box, and resulted in having to call in an electrician to fix everything, at a very hefty cost. And as a result, our woebegone hero ended up sleeping on the couch for the rest of the week. So much for our happy ending!

And as for statistics always being able to measure and actually predict human nature and outcomes, go read some Asimov!

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by BobC

Well, that is where the troll reference may become applicable. LOL It would seem he deep down must really get into these back and forths at some level, unfortunately, maybe more so than just the desire and interest in discussing such topics themselves that we typically end up doing on here from time to time. In other words, maybe he comes on sites like this looking for the arguments because that is what his psyche wants and needs, and doing so over the internet, he can stlll remain removed, somewhat anonymous, and thus feel safe. Which is kind of the definition for being a troll when you think about it. LOL

For example, it was much earlier in this thread that he appeared to get frustrated when people pushed back and didn't simply accept what he was saying, or the implied or overt insults. So he clearly and emphatically stated he was done with this, which pretty much every intelligent, normal person would take to mean he was done with responding and interacting with everyone on this thread anymore. Had he actually stuck to his word, I wonder if he wouldn't have garnered a little more respect from the crowd on here. But instead, it was just a few posts later, and he was right back at it without missing a beat. So does that point to some deeper, psychological urge or need, who knows?

On the positive side, even though I simply ignore and no longer waste my time reading his posts, in looking at what others are posting ang saying in this thread, it appears he's finally admitting the he may have made same errant statements and that his statistical assumptions and conclusions may not in fact always be infallible. And if I'm right, good for him. He does have and makes some very intelligent and interesting points and comments. It's just that he doesn't seem to realize, or doesn't want to admit, that as good as statistical analysis can appear to be, in the end it is nothing more than a tool to hopefully allow someone to more accurately predict an outcome, like who's going to win the Super Bowl. Unfortunately, when their ability to predict outcomes like the winner of a Super Bowl begins to have some success, such people may then try to extend that tool to possibly use it for something else that is not a totally objective question, like deciding who the greatest lefty pitcher of all time is. That is clearly not an objective question, and has no absolutely certain outcome we can then actually measure the effectiveness that some statistical analysis may have in predicting it, at least not like knowing there will be an actual Super Bowl winner. And also extremely important (and maybe the MOST important thing of all), everyone knows, AND AGREES, on exactly what the definition of and how you decide on who the Super Bowl winner is. In the case of the greatest lefty of all time, we haven't even begun to decide on the correct definition of "greatest" yet, let alone the actual measures we will then use to POSSIBLY decide an answer, if it can even be done. And untill that has been determined, everything is just someone's opinion, INCLUDING someone's statistical analysis.

And in regards to referring to statistics as just a tool.........

A statistician's wife has been bugging him for weeks to replace a light fixture on the ceiling, and he's finally going to get around to doing it (And without her having to pay him to do so, go figure!). Unfortunately, he needs a screwdriver to remove a few screws to get the job done, but doesn't have one. Well, he's up on the ladder already, so before getting down and then having to drive all the way to the store to buy a screwdriver, he goes digging around in his pocket and finds his penknife, and promptly uses that to remove the screws and complete the task. So he gets the job done using a tool that wasn't actually meant for what he ended up using it for. But he took a chance on guessing it might work and got lucky, like he got lucky to also just happen to have the penknife in his pocket when he most needed it to begin with. But before you go applauding the statistician for his fine work in completing the given task, and he triumphantly goes riding off into the sunset on his noble, white steed, with his beautiful and now forever grateful wife astride behind him, I have to finish the rest of the story.

Turns out that for maybe what little the statistician knew about tools, he knew even less about electricty. For while using his penknife to remove the screws and then replace the light fixture, he accidently knicked some wires in the ceiling and unknowingly got them crossed. So once he had the fixture replaced, he joyously called his wife to come and flip the switch to see the new fixture working, and what a great job he had done. Unfortunately, the knicked and crossed wires created a short, which blew out the fuse box, and resulted in having to call in an electrician to fix everything, at a very hefty cost. And as a result, our woebegone hero ended up sleeping on the couch for the rest of the week. So much for our happy ending!

And as for statistics always being able to measure and actually predict human nature and outcomes, go read some Asimov!

He loves the attention. He will take any side of an debate simply to argue and be the contrarian. On many threads he has ended up having to back down, back off or admit he was wrong. It is truly hysterical. For him it is the sport of it. He does not care who he annoys or even how he comes off. Even our talking about him gets his juices flowing. An absolutely massive ego and has narcissism down pat.

Sure he is bright but he has no people skills and I would guess that it is just not here but out in the wild too. I cannot ignore him...I admit I have a weakness for his rants. Endlessly amusing to watch him carry on the same exact way each time.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

He loves the attention. He will take any side of an debate simply to argue and be the contrarian. On many threads he has ended up having to back down, back off or admit he was wrong. It is truly hysterical. For him it is the sport of it. He does not care who he annoys or even how he comes off. Even our talking about him gets his juices flowing. An absolutely massive ego and has narcissism down pat.

Sure he is bright but he has no people skills and I would guess that it is just not here but out in the wild too. I cannot ignore him...I admit I have a weakness for his rants. Endlessly amusing to watch him carry on the same exact way each time.

Chase,

Agree, agree, agree. Plus, you just made a very enlightening comment I had thought about as well, but hadn't shared yet. You mentioned a possible lack of people skills, which can often go along with others factors, like sitting in an office all day just running numbers and never really interacting with anyone to ever be able to develop such people skills. Isn't it often true that people will tend to gravitate towards work and professions that most often mirror, or at least coincide with a large part of, their personalities? Assuming so, maybe he just needs to get out more. The next Net54 dinner/get together at the upcoming National would be perfect, don't you think?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by BobC

He even has a statistical algorithm to prove it. But don't ask him to show you, because he hasn't actually created it yet. And he doesn't really have the time to do it right now, unless you want to pay him. But even if you do, and then he does, it probably doesn't matter because he'll tell you you're too ignorant to understand it anyway.

And I'll give you $1k right now if you can explain in detail why a pitcher's win totals and ERA from any given season should not be used to evaluate pitching performance. And you can't just say "sample size". Good luck.