Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankphenom
Admitting to some prejudice on the matter, I've never understood how Cy Young--one of the all-time great pitchers, without question--gets a pass on his first ten seasons taking place in the 19th century. If you're going to assign a starting date for "modern" baseball, 1901 and the beginning of the two major leagues would seem to be a logical choice. We don't give Hoss Radbourn the record for wins at 59 or Will White the record for complete games at 75, because the game was too different when they pitched. Even the rules hadn't solidified: the distance from the rubber to the plate was 50 feet through 1893. If you start in 1901, the record book for career pitching feats looks quite different. Are there any other baseball records accepted from the 19th century? If not, why are those? I suppose the answer would be that Young proved himself a great pitcher in the 20th century, also, but is that enough?
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Personally, I think “all time” means all-time and that excluding the 19th century is inappropriate. The game was different, which is why we compare great players to their context, OPS+, ERA+, etc. that factor in what norms were in that time. Young is in my book probably the 2nd greatest pitcher ever, his effective innings thrown is absolutely astounding even in the context of his time and place. He hurled 1,300 more innings than anyone else, and did so very, very effectively. WAR, explicitly written in a way to try and punish 19th century pitchers more than anyone else, still has Young and Johnson neck and neck. Young seems oddly underrated in these conversations, to me. 138 ERA+, 7,356 innings is hard to beat.
Every record, almost, is set in a favorable context. Bonds’ record is partially due to his time and place, so is Ruth’s, so is Johnson’s, so is almost everyone’s. The 19th century is not different in this regard; the difference is people tend to like the context of eras they saw or romanticize. But for an all-time argument, I think all times must be included fairly or it’s not all-time.
11-19-2021, 09:32 AM
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