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  #1  
Old 11-18-2021, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers View Post
Do they have the ability to handle being a professional player? Johnson obviously answered that question. Do they have the mental ability to thrive for a long time? Johnson answered that question YES.
I wouldn't give Johnson TOO MUCH credit for his mental makeup and toughness. We're talking about a guy who intentionally tanked half a season to force a trade out of Seattle.
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  #2  
Old 11-18-2021, 11:41 PM
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I wouldn't give Johnson TOO MUCH credit for his mental makeup and toughness. We're talking about a guy who intentionally tanked half a season to force a trade out of Seattle.
Can we really blame him for that though? The Mariners are the worst franchise in all of sports. Not just the MLB. All major sports. As someone who grew up in Seattle, he gets a standing ovation from me for that move. The Mariners are the only Seattle sports team that I don't root for. They basically gave the fans a big middle finger for decades, so I gave one back.
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  #3  
Old 11-19-2021, 05:20 AM
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Can we really blame him for that though? The Mariners are the worst franchise in all of sports. Not just the MLB. All major sports. As someone who grew up in Seattle, he gets a standing ovation from me for that move. The Mariners are the only Seattle sports team that I don't root for. They basically gave the fans a big middle finger for decades, so I gave one back.
+1 Agreed well said
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  #4  
Old 11-19-2021, 10:29 AM
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The Mariners are the worst franchise in all of sports. Not just the MLB. All major sports.
You must not be familiar with the New York Knickerbockers.
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  #5  
Old 11-19-2021, 11:37 AM
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You must not be familiar with the New York Knickerbockers.
The Orioles aren't exactly spending up to win for their fans.
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  #6  
Old 11-19-2021, 12:27 PM
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The Orioles aren't exactly spending up to win for their fans.
Agreed, the Rockies are also horribly run. They won't spend enough to win, and refuse to tank to get better in the long term.
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  #7  
Old 11-19-2021, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry View Post
You must not be familiar with the New York Knickerbockers.
Ahem...

The Mariners have never made it to the World Series. I'm not talking about winning it, I'm just talking about making it there. They are the only team in the entire MLB to have never made it.

They haven't even made the Playoffs one single time in the last 20 years. And in their entire 44 year history, they've made it 4 times. Yep, that's right, they failed to make the playoffs 40 times out of their 44 seasons. All this despite having one of the greatest center fielders of all time, THE greatest shortstop of all time (and please don't come back at me with some nonsense about Honus Wagner being better), and arguably the greatest pitcher of all time in Randy Johnson ALL ON THE SAME TEAM AT THE SAME TIME.

Meanwhile, the Knicks have made it to the NBA finals 8 times, winning it twice. They've also made the playoffs 43 times! Granted, they've been around for 75 years, but even if you cut their numbers in half, hell, cut them in a fourth, they're still miles better of a franchise than the Mariners.

When I said the Mariners were the worst franchise in sports, I meant that literally. You cannot find a worse performing team than the M's in any major sport in the United States. I'm sure there's some international soccer team somewhere from some island without potable water that miiiiight have a worse record than the Mariners, so I don't know if I can say with confidence that they are the worst team on the planet in any sport ever, but they're the worst team in any sport I'm aware of, and they're definitely the worst team in any major US sport and it's really not even close.

Last edited by Snowman; 11-19-2021 at 12:28 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-19-2021, 12:31 PM
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Ahem...

The Mariners have never made it to the World Series. I'm not talking about winning it, I'm just talking about making it there. They are the only team in the entire MLB to have never made it.

They haven't even made the Playoffs one single time in the last 20 years. And in their entire 44 year history, they've made it 4 times. Yep, that's right, they failed to make the playoffs 40 times out of their 44 seasons. All this despite having one of the greatest center fielders of all time, THE greatest shortstop of all time (and please don't come back at me with some nonsense about Honus Wagner being better), and arguably the greatest pitcher of all time in Randy Johnson ALL ON THE SAME TEAM AT THE SAME TIME.

Meanwhile, the Knicks have made it to the NBA finals 8 times, winning it twice. They've also made the playoffs 43 times! Granted, they've been around for 75 years, but even if you cut their numbers in half, hell, cut them in a fourth, they're still miles better of a franchise than the Mariners.

When I said the Mariners were the worst franchise in sports, I meant that literally. You cannot find a worse performing team than the M's in any major sport in the United States. I'm sure there's some international soccer team somewhere from some island without potable water that miiiiight have a worse record than the Mariners, so I don't know if I can say with confidence that they are the worst team on the planet in any sport ever, but they're the worst team in any sport I'm aware of, and they're definitely the worst team in any major US sport and it's really not even close.
Sounds like we have different criteria for defining "worst franchise in all of sports"–ask any New York sports fan about Jim Dolan and watch them as they try in vain to suppress their outrage...

Last edited by BobbyStrawberry; 11-19-2021 at 12:32 PM. Reason: can't spell
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  #9  
Old 11-19-2021, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
Ahem...

The Mariners have never made it to the World Series. I'm not talking about winning it, I'm just talking about making it there. They are the only team in the entire MLB to have never made it.

They haven't even made the Playoffs one single time in the last 20 years. And in their entire 44 year history, they've made it 4 times. Yep, that's right, they failed to make the playoffs 40 times out of their 44 seasons. All this despite having one of the greatest center fielders of all time, THE greatest shortstop of all time (and please don't come back at me with some nonsense about Honus Wagner being better), and arguably the greatest pitcher of all time in Randy Johnson ALL ON THE SAME TEAM AT THE SAME TIME.

Meanwhile, the Knicks have made it to the NBA finals 8 times, winning it twice. They've also made the playoffs 43 times! Granted, they've been around for 75 years, but even if you cut their numbers in half, hell, cut them in a fourth, they're still miles better of a franchise than the Mariners.

When I said the Mariners were the worst franchise in sports, I meant that literally. You cannot find a worse performing team than the M's in any major sport in the United States. I'm sure there's some international soccer team somewhere from some island without potable water that miiiiight have a worse record than the Mariners, so I don't know if I can say with confidence that they are the worst team on the planet in any sport ever, but they're the worst team in any sport I'm aware of, and they're definitely the worst team in any major US sport and it's really not even close.
Mariners have won 47% of their games and 0 World Series games since 1977.

Padres have won 46% of their games and 1 World Series game since 1969.

I'd say it's quite close.
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  #10  
Old 11-19-2021, 02:22 PM
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Mariners have won 47% of their games and 0 World Series games since 1977.

Padres have won 46% of their games and 1 World Series game since 1969.

I'd say it's quite close.
I wish The Founder had included the part where Ray Kroc used the PA system to chastise the Padres during a game.
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  #11  
Old 11-19-2021, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by darwinbulldog View Post
Mariners have won 47% of their games and 0 World Series games since 1977.

Padres have won 46% of their games and 1 World Series game since 1969.

I'd say it's quite close.
As bad as those 2 franchises might be, the Detroit Lions are not too far behind. Granted, they won a few NFL championships from the 1930's to 1950's, but they have only won 1 playoff game since 1957, and hold the current distinction as the oldest NFL franchise to never appear in a Super Bowl.

My Dad and I gave up on them a few years ago after wasting too many Sunday afternoons watching them create new and creative ways to lose games.

Season after season of watching them snatch defeat from the jaws of victory each week felt bad for our health.

We're much happier now.

Last edited by Kzoo; 11-19-2021 at 06:09 PM. Reason: typo
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  #12  
Old 11-19-2021, 03:49 PM
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Can we really blame him for that though? The Mariners are the worst franchise in all of sports. Not just the MLB. All major sports. As someone who grew up in Seattle, he gets a standing ovation from me for that move. The Mariners are the only Seattle sports team that I don't root for. They basically gave the fans a big middle finger for decades, so I gave one back.
I would say if you don't blame a guy for faking an injury and intentionally tanking games, it says a lot about your character let alone the character of the guy doing it.
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  #13  
Old 11-19-2021, 04:39 PM
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I would say if you don't blame a guy for faking an injury and intentionally tanking games, it says a lot about your character let alone the character of the guy doing it.
The idea that one needs to try to win at all costs while playing for a team that has made it abundantly clear that they intend to lose at all costs is pretty silly. Especially if he was being treated like shit in the process. Kudos to Randy Johnson for getting himself out of a bad situation.
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  #14  
Old 11-19-2021, 07:00 PM
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The idea that one needs to try to win at all costs while playing for a team that has made it abundantly clear that they intend to lose at all costs is pretty silly. Especially if he was being treated like shit in the process. Kudos to Randy Johnson for getting himself out of a bad situation.
This comment has made me decide to not pay Snowman $500,000 to develop that statistical analysis he brags he could build. I think he'd be likely to take the money and give a half-@ss effort.
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  #15  
Old 11-19-2021, 07:11 PM
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This comment has made me decide to not pay Snowman $500,000 to develop that statistical analysis he brags he could build. I think he'd be likely to take the money and give a half-@ss effort.
Half?!?!?!

I'm thinking you're being way to generous there. Maybe a third-@ss, or even a quarter-@ss effort?
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  #16  
Old 11-19-2021, 09:50 PM
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The idea that one needs to try to win at all costs while playing for a team that has made it abundantly clear that they intend to lose at all costs is pretty silly. Especially if he was being treated like shit in the process. Kudos to Randy Johnson for getting himself out of a bad situation.
When you're already in a hole, stop digging.
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  #17  
Old 11-19-2021, 05:38 PM
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I would say if you don't blame a guy for faking an injury and intentionally tanking games, it says a lot about your character let alone the character of the guy doing it.
Excellent point, couldn't agree more.

And besides, Johnson did sign a contract to play, and got a lot of money for doing so. If he didn't like it, still honor the contract and leave when the contract is over, if they won't otherwise trade you, right? No one put a gun to his head to originally sign, did they? And I'm guessing he didn't decline to accept, or pay back, what he got paid for any thrown games either.
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Old 11-19-2021, 07:57 PM
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Excellent point, couldn't agree more.

And besides, Johnson did sign a contract to play, and got a lot of money for doing so. If he didn't like it, still honor the contract and leave when the contract is over, if they won't otherwise trade you, right? No one put a gun to his head to originally sign, did they? And I'm guessing he didn't decline to accept, or pay back, what he got paid for any thrown games either.
All of this talk is irrelevant though if it actually never happened. I, for one, have never even heard this rumor before about Randy Johnson throwing games or faking injuries. I'm just saying kudos to him for finding a way out of Seattle if he did. But if you look at his stats from the year he got traded, and even the year before that, he didn't appear to miss any time and his stats were in line with what he was doing in the years just prior to that, so I'm not so sure I buy it. If he were actually throwing games, that would show up in his stats, and if he were faking injuries, he would have been missing starts, no?

Ah, nevermind. Bad idea. Silly me thinking statistics can help answer questions. That's just like, my opinion, man.
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  #19  
Old 11-19-2021, 08:12 PM
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All of this talk is irrelevant though if it actually never happened. I, for one, have never even heard this rumor before about Randy Johnson throwing games or faking injuries. I'm just saying kudos to him for finding a way out of Seattle if he did. But if you look at his stats from the year he got traded, and even the year before that, he didn't appear to miss any time and his stats were in line with what he was doing in the years just prior to that, so I'm not so sure I buy it. If he were actually throwing games, that would show up in his stats, and if he were faking injuries, he would have been missing starts, no?

Ah, nevermind. Bad idea. Silly me thinking statistics can help answer questions. That's just like, my opinion, man.
Tell me how Joe Jackson's stats in the 1919 World Series would clue you in to the fact he was on the gamblers' payroll, paid to lose.
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  #20  
Old 11-19-2021, 09:12 PM
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Randy Johnson 1st 60 percent of 1998 ERA 4.33 (SEA)
Randy Johnson 2nd 40 percent of 1998 ERA 1.28 (HOU)

His WHIP went down by .3 from SEA to HOU

Maybe the DHs were killing him.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-19-2021 at 09:16 PM.
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  #21  
Old 11-19-2021, 09:29 PM
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Tell me how Joe Jackson's stats in the 1919 World Series would clue you in to the fact he was on the gamblers' payroll, paid to lose.
We've had threads on that in the past. Jackson got duped by listening to Comiskey who didn't help him when he tried to report it and asked what to do. But you're absolutely right about his play. Believe he had the highest BA of anyone in that WS, around .380 or so, and don't believe he commited any errors either. But any good statistician would have looked Jackson's stats up right away before accusing him of actually throwing a game, or so you'd think.
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  #22  
Old 11-19-2021, 10:21 PM
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All of this talk is irrelevant though if it actually never happened. I, for one, have never even heard this rumor before about Randy Johnson throwing games or faking injuries. I'm just saying kudos to him for finding a way out of Seattle if he did. But if you look at his stats from the year he got traded, and even the year before that, he didn't appear to miss any time and his stats were in line with what he was doing in the years just prior to that, so I'm not so sure I buy it. If he were actually throwing games, that would show up in his stats, and if he were faking injuries, he would have been missing starts, no?

Ah, nevermind. Bad idea. Silly me thinking statistics can help answer questions. That's just like, my opinion, man.
You sound kind of like a dick sometimes. No one else does.
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  #23  
Old 11-20-2021, 03:00 AM
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You sound kind of like a dick sometimes. No one else does.
No one else does? LMFAO. What'd you do, filter out everyone's posts but mine? This entire thread has been others posting their opinions, them me providing my opinions, others shitting on me for having them, and then me throwing shit back.

And what about this very post of yours? Not a dickish post?
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  #24  
Old 11-20-2021, 12:49 AM
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But if you look at his stats from the year he got traded, and even the year before that, he didn't appear to miss any time and his stats were in line with what he was doing in the years just prior to that, .
His ERA was over 2 full runs higher in 1998 before the trade compared to 1997 but, sure, his stats were right in line.
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  #25  
Old 11-20-2021, 06:55 AM
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His ERA was over 2 full runs higher in 1998 before the trade compared to 1997 but, sure, his stats were right in line.
This is the type of nonsense I'm talking about. The fact that he posted an ERA of 2 runs higher than he did the year before in Seattle at the trade deadline literally means absolutely nothing. It tells you nothing about how well he was pitching without also looking at his other stats like FIP, BABIP, K/9 and BB/9. The data clearly shows that he simply got unlucky over the course of the first 2/3s of the season but was still every bit as dominant with the factors that were within his control.
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  #26  
Old 11-19-2021, 06:24 PM
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Can we really blame him for that though? The Mariners are the worst franchise in all of sports. Not just the MLB. All major sports. As someone who grew up in Seattle, he gets a standing ovation from me for that move. The Mariners are the only Seattle sports team that I don't root for. They basically gave the fans a big middle finger for decades, so I gave one back.
If you take the paychecks, you owe 100% effort. Period.
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  #27  
Old 11-19-2021, 07:05 PM
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If you take the paychecks, you owe 100% effort. Period.
Couldn't agree more!

And along those lines, can't remember if it was Dimaggio, Mantle, or some other player who said (and I'm paraphrasing here), that they always went out and played every game as hard/well as they could, even if they were hurting or slightly injured, because they knew some kid/person had paid for their ticket to come and watch him play that day. And that's the kind of person/player you put into a conversation of greatest of all time. It's that intangible human factor that statistics can't measure.
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  #28  
Old 11-19-2021, 07:12 PM
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Couldn't agree more!

And along those lines, can't remember if it was Dimaggio, Mantle, or some other player who said (and I'm paraphrasing here), that they always went out and played every game as hard/well as they could, even if they were hurting or slightly injured, because they knew some kid/person had paid for their ticket to come and watch him play that day. And that's the kind of person/player you put into a conversation of greatest of all time. It's that intangible human factor that statistics can't measure.
My favorite give it all guys are Derek Jeter in baseball and Alonzo Mourning in basketball. They both seemed to give all they had all the time.

Randy being a quitter that year could be why he has such a small fan base and the reason his cards are dirt cheap.
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  #29  
Old 11-19-2021, 07:48 PM
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My favorite give it all guys are Derek Jeter in baseball and Alonzo Mourning in basketball. They both seemed to give all they had all the time.

Randy being a quitter that year could be why he has such a small fan base and the reason his cards are dirt cheap.
Great point and comments!

The majority of players, especially the great ones, know one of the most important things they can ever do is play for their fans. And Jeter is a particularly great example. Heck, how many times in his career did he hurt himself trying to make a play he should have just let go?
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  #30  
Old 11-20-2021, 08:10 AM
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My favorite give it all guys are Derek Jeter in baseball and Alonzo Mourning in basketball. They both seemed to give all they had all the time.

Randy being a quitter that year could be why he has such a small fan base and the reason his cards are dirt cheap.
Also as Wilt Chamberlain once said, "Nobody roots for Goliath"
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  #31  
Old 11-19-2021, 07:27 PM
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If you take the paychecks, you owe 100% effort. Period.
Part of the reason why less than a week after Manny Ramirez was traded, there were 'Manny who?' signs going up in Boston.
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  #32  
Old 11-19-2021, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
I wouldn't give Johnson TOO MUCH credit for his mental makeup and toughness. We're talking about a guy who intentionally tanked half a season to force a trade out of Seattle.
Great point. Forget the numbers, would teammates, and many other players, and especially fans, ever consider someone as an all time great if they had turned ttheir backs on their teammates and fans to purposely lose for their own selfish purposes? i would think it could become a very serious negative part of such considerations. But don't tell that to someone who justs looks at numbers. They'll likely tell you it doesn't matter and ignore something like that because it doesn't fit their narrative or their definition of what the "greatest" should be.

Statistics often ignore the human element, like this would be. How would one ever even measure and quantify something like this from a statistical standpoint to reflect the obvious negative impact such an action by a player would bring to his perception by the public at large? Actually, I take that back. Now that I think about it, I can see some statistician quantify such actions. Upon hearing some player purposely threw some gains by performing poorly on purpose, I can see a statistician go back and remove the player's performance results from those thrown games from his overall stats, because those thrown games are not a true reflection of the players actual ability, and therefore taint his statistical database. But doing that actually helps make the player statistically better and more likely to be considered the "greatest", and not less likely as I would expect to be the case in the eyes of a majority of the public upon learning what the player had done.

And if such ever did occur, it would just reflect another disconnect between the real and statistical worlds.
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Old 11-19-2021, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by BobC View Post
Great point. Forget the numbers, would teammates, and many other players, and especially fans, ever consider someone as an all time great if they had turned ttheir backs on their teammates and fans to purposely lose for their own selfish purposes? i would think it could become a very serious negative part of such considerations. But don't tell that to someone who justs looks at numbers. They'll likely tell you it doesn't matter and ignore something like that because it doesn't fit their narrative or their definition of what the "greatest" should be.

Statistics often ignore the human element, like this would be. How would one ever even measure and quantify something like this from a statistical standpoint to reflect the obvious negative impact such an action by a player would bring to his perception by the public at large? Actually, I take that back. Now that I think about it, I can see some statistician quantify such actions. Upon hearing some player purposely threw some gains by performing poorly on purpose, I can see a statistician go back and remove the player's performance results from those thrown games from his overall stats, because those thrown games are not a true reflection of the players actual ability, and therefore taint his statistical database. But doing that actually helps make the player statistically better and more likely to be considered the "greatest", and not less likely as I would expect to be the case in the eyes of a majority of the public upon learning what the player had done.

And if such ever did occur, it would just reflect another disconnect between the real and statistical worlds.
This is exactly what people do when they choose Hal Chase as the greatest dead ball first baseman.

One of the measures mentioned in this thread is "If you had one game to win, like a Game 7, who do you want?" I have often thought that the single guy I DO NOT want on my team, for a big game, would be Chase. I wouldn't want him within 20 miles of the ballpark. The bigger the game, the more lucrative it might be for Chase to throw.

So, there are some who call Chase the best first baseman of his day, while I'll call him the worst with Gandil not far behind.
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Old 11-19-2021, 06:03 AM
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This is exactly what people do when they choose Hal Chase as the greatest dead ball first baseman.

One of the measures mentioned in this thread is "If you had one game to win, like a Game 7, who do you want?" I have often thought that the single guy I DO NOT want on my team, for a big game, would be Chase. I wouldn't want him within 20 miles of the ballpark. The bigger the game, the more lucrative it might be for Chase to throw.

So, there are some who call Chase the best first baseman of his day, while I'll call him the worst with Gandil not far behind.
Mark, walk me through this one. Interested to learn but didn’t follow solely based on a lack of knowledge on my part. Jim
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Old 11-19-2021, 07:06 AM
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Mark, walk me through this one. Interested to learn but didn’t follow solely based on a lack of knowledge on my part. Jim
Im guessing that he is referring to the 1919 Black Sox Scandal?

From wikipedia :

it was universally understood that all eight implicated White Sox players were to be banned from Major League Baseball for life. Two other players believed to be involved were also banned. One of them was Hal Chase, who had been effectively blackballed from the majors in 1919 for a long history of throwing games and had spent 1920 in the minors. He was rumored to have been a go-between for Gandil and the gamblers, though it has never been confirmed. Regardless of this, it was understood that Landis' announcement not only formalized his 1919 blacklisting from the majors but barred him from the minors as well.
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Old 11-19-2021, 07:08 AM
Carter08 Carter08 is offline
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Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen View Post
Im guessing that he is referring to the 1919 Black Sox Scandal?

From wikipedia :

it was universally understood that all eight implicated White Sox players were to be banned from Major League Baseball for life. Two other players believed to be involved were also banned. One of them was Hal Chase, who had been effectively blackballed from the majors in 1919 for a long history of throwing games and had spent 1920 in the minors. He was rumored to have been a go-between for Gandil and the gamblers, though it has never been confirmed. Regardless of this, it was understood that Landis' announcement not only formalized his 1919 blacklisting from the majors but barred him from the minors as well.
Ah, yup, this is terrible but I forgot Chase was one of them!
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Old 11-19-2021, 05:18 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
This is exactly what people do when they choose Hal Chase as the greatest dead ball first baseman.

One of the measures mentioned in this thread is "If you had one game to win, like a Game 7, who do you want?" I have often thought that the single guy I DO NOT want on my team, for a big game, would be Chase. I wouldn't want him within 20 miles of the ballpark. The bigger the game, the more lucrative it might be for Chase to throw.

So, there are some who call Chase the best first baseman of his day, while I'll call him the worst with Gandil not far behind.
Mark,

That's an absolutely great observation, agree.

And by mentioning how some people may choose to define "greatest" by whom they would pick for a single WS game, versus how they performed during their peak playing years, or alternatively over their entire career, it underscores the need for all participants in such a discussion to first come to a consensus agreement as to exactly what "greatest" means. Secondly, then deciding on what they would agree upon as the appropriate measures to make their determination. And only after all that, then would you start looking at individual player's stats and data.

And if the definition was to be defined by who you would pick to start game7 of the WS, since we're only talking about a pitcher's single best game, and not their performance over a season or their career, do you think an argument could/should be made for Don Larsen? He cleary had the greatest single game pitching performance of any WS pitcher in MLB history.
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