Were the T210's actually a 1910 issue or were they issued in 1911?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Pat, the T210 issue date is not just based on team affiliations. Sometimes I think you have me on your ignored list. Look at the newspaper clippings you yourself posted, all but one point to a 1910 release date and in that other you hyper-focus on one verb tense in one sentence. That’s it, that is all you have shown, and I’ll get back to that in a bit.

1. Do you agree that the Old Mill Cabinets came after the T210s? As I stated, one team in particular moved from Portsmouth to Petersburg in July 1910, and the cabinets show Petersburg while the cards show Portsmouth. Is it not logical to conclude that the cards would have been corrected if produced after the cabinets, and because they were not, the cards came first?

2. A December 1910 article that you posted makes reference to the cabinets being made available a second time, having been released previously “some time ago”. This points to the cabinets being available and enjoyed in 1910, and if the T210 cards preceded the cabinets, wouldn’t the same hold true–1910?

The player referenced in the article on which you rely (post #1) is Sharp, who appears on Goldsboro in Series 7 of the T210 set. We know that Series 7 depicted only East Carolina Leaguers. We also know that the cabinets show players from three different leagues, which correspond to Series 2, 5 and 7 of T210. Since the cabinets for players from these leagues are known to have been available “some time ago” in 1910, and the cards from these leagues would have come before the cabinets, then it stands to reason that Mr. Sharp’s Series 7 card was available in 1910. So the one player whose card you question as to date seems pretty clearly attributed to 1910. Or am I missing something? Add to this that there are clippings announcing in March 1910 that the cards were coming, and others from April and June discussing the cards, and I still believe this is evidence of a 1910 release.

However, the best point you made was about the Shelbyville to Maysville team move late in the 1910 season. That indicates a later release for the Series 6 Blue Grass league, although it is not clear that extends it into 1911.
I had assumed the T210s were all issued near the same time, based mostly on my observation of the Series 2, 5 and & 7 series I just referenced. In addition to their being featured in the H801-7 cabinet checklist, Series 2, 5 and 7 also share many photos with the T209-2 Contentnea set from 1910. Why skip number those series unless the others were already produced, although I guess they could have been intended for production and just got a late start. As for series 8, it uses several photos from the T211 set that has also been dated to 1910, so that too fits nicely with a 1910 release date. There is more to be investigated, for sure, but IMHO 1910 looks far more likely right now than 1911 for the Old Mill T210s, and not just because of player-team combinations shown on the cards.

I don't have you or anyone on my ignore list I'm sorry if I didn't answer something you asked. I disagree about the newspaper clips all pointing to a 1910 release date they do point to the preparation of the T210's in 1910.


1. I don't think Portsmouth/Petersburg is positive proof the cabinets came after the T210's they are a different process they may have changed the team on them but not the t210's.

2. I think 1 answers 2


I said in the beginning that I'm not that familiar with the T210's but I have started doing a little research to learn more about them.

Wingo Anderson is depicted with Nashville on his T210 He played on Cincinnati in 1910 he didn't play with Nashville until 1911.

[nolemmings]

Thanks for the response Pat. Feel free to disagree, especially since I claim no specific expertise about or love for this set--just using logic and what I have seen so far. Seems to me though, that you have little to no affirmative evidence of a 1911 release date for T210, instead you simply state that the pointers toward 1910 could be wrong or are not conclusive proof.

I look forward to your continued research, and may do more myself. Your reference to Wingo Anderson is interesting, although to take a page out of your book, there is something inconclusive there as well. First, according to Baseball Reference, Wingo Anderson stopped pitching for Cincinnati on June 1, 1910, so it is possible he signed with Nashville later that year and did not appear in a game. My first 20 minutes of research on him shows he was assigned to Dayton but refused to sign there, but I have not tracked him further.

Perhaps more importantly though, it is possible the subject named "Anderson" on Nashville in T210 (and T211-same photo) is not Wingo Anderson at all. The card depicts a right-handed pitcher in the stretch, and by all accounts I have seen, including Baseball Reference and Baseball Almanac, Wingo Anderson was a southpaw.
(Not my card)

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Thanks for the response Pat. Feel free to disagree, especially since I claim no specific expertise about or love for this set--just using logic and what I have seen so far. Seems to me though, that you have little to no affirmative evidence of a 1911 release date for T210, instead you simply state that the pointers toward 1910 could be wrong or are not conclusive proof.

I look forward to your continued research, and may do more myself. Your reference to Wingo Anderson is interesting, although to take a page out of your book, there is something inconclusive there as well. First, according to Baseball Reference, Wingo Anderson stopped pitching for Cincinnati on June 1, 1910, so it is possible he signed with Nashville later that year and did not appear in a game. My first 20 minutes of research on him shows he was assigned to Dayton but refused to sign there, but I have not tracked him further.

Perhaps more importantly though, it is possible the subject named "Anderson" on Nashville in T210 (and T211-same photo) is not Wingo Anderson at all. The card depicts a right-handed pitcher in the stretch, and by all accounts I have seen, including Baseball Reference and Baseball Almanac, Wingo Anderson was a southpaw.
(Not my card)

Todd, I agree it's possibly not him I'll check for other Andersons with Nashville in 1909-1911.

January 11 1911
Wingo Anderson.jpg

Here are all the Andersons that are listed as playing for Nashville

H. Anderson 1920
Herb Anderson 1958
John D. Anderson 1931
John M. Anderson 1929-1930
Wingo Anderson 1911

I think it's fair to assume whoever it was that put the name on the card thought it was Wingo Anderson.

[Pat R]

Here's a picture of Anderson from May 1912 I'm not good at picture comparisons but it doesn't look like the person on the T210 to me.

[IMG][/IMG]

[oldeboo]

Wingo Anderson did not represent Nashville in T210-8. Below is a picture of the right handed C.A. Anderson that represented Nashville in T210-8. He likely had a contract signed with Nashville in 1909 and was already gone from the team by 4/10/1910. He is not part of the first 24 in T210-8, which includes all of the T206 images, but he is in the first 75 which corresponds with the T211 set. Kelly and Welf that are mentioned in the last clipping are also in the first 75 and departed Nashville at the same time as Anderson. All of the Nashville subjects were in the first 75 and only three were in the first 24 which would be Harry Bay, Bill Bernhard, and Hub Perdue. Bay, Bernhard, and Perdue all played for Nashville in 1909 and their T210-8 cards used the same image as T206. Once again, indications towards early 1910.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Wingo Anderson did not represent Nashville in T210-8. Below is a picture of the right handed C.A. Anderson that represented Nashville in T210-8. He likely had a contract signed with Nashville in 1909 and was already gone from the team by 4/10/1910. He is not part of the first 24 in T210-8, which includes all of the T206 images, but he is in the first 75 which corresponds with the T211 set. Kelly and Welf that are mentioned in the last clipping are also in the first 75 and departed Nashville at the same time as Anderson. All of the Nashville subjects were in the first 75 and only three were in the first 24 which would be Harry Bay, Bill Bernhard, and Hub Perdue. Bay, Bernhard, and Perdue all played for Nashville in 1909 and their T210-8 cards used the same image as T206. Once again, indications towards early 1910.

For the pictures Trey not the distribution of the cards.

[oldeboo]

Sure, we will likely never be able to eliminate the possibility that a large number of players that were cut before the 1910 season were distributed in 1911. It's technically possible, sure. Likewise, it's technically possible that T210 distribution started in 1909. Realistic? Not in my opinion, but possible.

[RCMcKenzie]

Looks like C.A. Anderson. I have the T210 and T211.

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Looks like C.A. Anderson. I have the T210 and T211.

Very nice red and green borders, Rob. Here is an image that shows the contingent of Anderson, Kelly, and Welf that left Nashville for Greenwood. They are shown in this image from The Commercial Appeal 5/2/1910. Certainly some lesser known players, but that makes T210 interesting.