Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

After all, he is KOUFAX seems to be the linchpin of every argument for him, consistency be damned he must be evaluated under separate standards from every other contender. It’s only been like 18 months, perhaps next year a logical, consistently applied argument will be put forth for Koufax.

Koufax had an astounding peak, an amazing talent and 4 year run, I thought. But if Spahn is “above average, at best”, then Koufax, who has less than half of Spahn career value, must be a straight up bum.

Since you're much more statistically adept than I am you might look into the point that he benefited disproportionately from pitching in Dodger Stadium. I've seen the case made but cannot find it.

[Mark17]

Either Grove or Spahn was the best. Grove spent his first 5 years in the minors, playing close to his home and birthplace in MD, winning 111 games. Then, as a 25 year old rookie, he began his ML career which saw him win 300 games against 141 losses, a better than 2-1 ratio.

Spahn had 363 ML wins and also began his ML career late, because of the war.

I'll take Grove as the best and a very close second is Spahn. If I was a GM I'd prefer Warren, as he was a much more congenial fellow. So it's a toss-up.

If Grove begins his career in the majors, and if not for WW2, both Spahn and Grove may have been 400 game winners. Their career ERAs were virtually the same.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Their career ERAs were virtually the same.

Only if we ignore context.

Relative to time and place, against the league:
Grove: 148 ERA+
Spahn: 119 ERA+

Raw:
Grove: 3.06
Spahn: 3.09

Grove beat his league average by 48%, which was for a very long time the all-time record for a starter. Spahn by 19%.

[cjedmonton]

Gee, I’m almost sorry I dug this thread up…almost.

All kidding aside, the commentary and analysis is very entertaining..enlightening even. For sure one of my favorite baseball subjects.

There will never be a consensus on this topic…and I think that should suit us just fine.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Since you're much more statistically adept than I am you might look into the point that he benefited disproportionately from pitching in Dodger Stadium. I've seen the case made but cannot find it.

The road argument takes up a lot of the #100's and #400's posts. The benefits of Dodger Stadium are apparent, like for many other pitchers in that park during this period, the gap is often astronomical. His total home/road splits:

1955
Home 2.25
Away 4.08

1956
Home 7.50
Away 3.76

1957
Home 3.70
Away 4.10

1958
Home 3.70
Away 4.10

1959
Home 2.71
Away 5.50

1960
Home 5.27
Away 3.00

1961
Home 4.22
Away 2.77

1962
Home 1.75
Away 3.53

1963
Home 1.38
Away 2.31

1964
Home 0.85
Away 2.93

1965
Home 1.38
Away 2.72


1966
Home 1.52
Away 1.96


Once the Dodgers move to Dodger Stadium in 1962, Koufax becomes Koufax. Doesn't hurt it was also an expansion year. After Koufax becomes Koufax, his away ERA's, relative to the league, are fairly similar to what they were in 1960 and 1961. His 1966 Away performance is amazing even in the low run context of 1966, but other than that the gap is huge the other years of his greatness.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

The road argument takes up a lot of the #100's and #400's posts. The benefits of Dodger Stadium are apparent, like for many other pitchers in that park during this period, the gap is often astronomical. His total home/road splits:

1955
Home 2.25
Away 4.08

1956
Home 7.50
Away 3.76

1957
Home 3.70
Away 4.10

1958
Home 3.70
Away 4.10

1959
Home 2.71
Away 5.50

1960
Home 5.27
Away 3.00

1961
Home 4.22
Away 2.77

1962
Home 1.75
Away 3.53

1963
Home 1.38
Away 2.31

1964
Home 0.85
Away 2.93

1965
Home 1.38
Away 2.72


1966
Home 1.52
Away 1.96


Once the Dodgers move to Dodger Stadium in 1962, Koufax becomes Koufax. Doesn't hurt it was also an expansion year. After Koufax becomes Koufax, his away ERA's, relative to the league, are fairly similar to what they were in 1960 and 1961. His 1966 Away performance is amazing even in the low run context of 1966, but other than that the gap is huge the other years of his greatness.

So he basically had four truly great years.
Now of course he quit at 30 so he's probably in people's minds getting implied credit for what he "would have" done had he not quit.