Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[G1911]

Even if we dismiss everyone before a randomly selected year to include only ones arbitrarily favorite candidates, how does one possibly come to the conclusion that Spahn was “an above average pitcher, at best”. At best. 100 WAR, 365 wins, 3 ERA crowns, 5 WHIP titles, 119 ERA+ In over 5,000 innings. This is merely above average, *at best*.

Surely someone can come up with a hot take that isn’t utterly absurd and can stand up to even cursory logical examination.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Spahn does well by the Bill James/Baseball Reference metrics.

Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Pitching - 101 (6), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink
Pitching - 374 (3), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor
Pitching - 260 (8), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Pitching - 66 (10), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Starting Pitcher (13th):
100.1 career WAR | 51.4 7yr-peak WAR | 75.7 JAWS | 4.8 WAR/162
Average HOF P (out of 65):
73.3 career WAR | 50.0 7yr-peak WAR | 61.7 JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Spahn does well by the Bill James/Baseball Reference metrics.

Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Pitching - 101 (6), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink
Pitching - 374 (3), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor
Pitching - 260 (8), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Pitching - 66 (10), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Starting Pitcher (13th):
100.1 career WAR | 51.4 7yr-peak WAR | 75.7 JAWS | 4.8 WAR/162
Average HOF P (out of 65):
73.3 career WAR | 50.0 7yr-peak WAR | 61.7 JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162

I’m hard pressed to find a standard by which Spahn isn’t excellent. That Hall Monitor number is nuts.


If we must dismiss Spahn for playing so long ago, how is Koufax eligible for consideration though? They are contemporaries. Spahn win the NL ERA crown the year before Koufax’s streak began, retired one season before Koufax. 11 of Sandy's 12 seasons were played with Spahn in the league.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’m hard pressed to find a standard by which Spahn isn’t excellent. That Hall Monitor number is nuts.


If we must dismiss Spahn for playing so long ago, how is Koufax eligible for consideration though? They are contemporaries. Spahn win the NL ERA crown the year before Koufax’s streak began, retired one season before Koufax. 11 of Sandy's 12 seasons were played with Spahn in the league.

And in how many of those did Spahn have a better year? Perhaps half?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And in how many of those did Spahn have a better year? Perhaps half?

This should be pretty easy, as the winner is clear each year but 1:

1955 Spahn
1956 Spahn
1957 Spahn
1958 Spahn
1959 Spahn
1960 Spahn
1961 Spahn (wins ERA crown at 40)
1962 Debatable - WAR gives it to Spahn, Koufax won ERA title with far less IP.
1963 Koufax
1964 Koufax
1965 Koufax

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

This should be pretty easy, as the winner is clear each year but 1:

1955 Spahn
1956 Spahn
1957 Spahn
1958 Spahn
1959 Spahn
1960 Spahn
1961 Spahn (wins ERA crown at 40)
1962 Debatable - WAR gives it to Spahn, Koufax won ERA title with far less IP.
1963 Koufax
1964 Koufax
1965 Koufax

I guess we need an argument that the first half of Koufax' career somehow isn't relevant to the evaluation. You only take his great years. Maybe within those great years you disregard any mediocre to poor games. Then you compare the sliver that's left to everyone else. After all he is KOUFAX.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess we need an argument that the first half of Koufax' career somehow isn't relevant to the evaluation. You only take his great years. Maybe within those great years you disregard any mediocre to poor games. Then you compare the sliver that's left to everyone else. After all he is KOUFAX.

After all, he is KOUFAX seems to be the linchpin of every argument for him, consistency be damned he must be evaluated under separate standards from every other contender. It’s only been like 18 months, perhaps next year a logical, consistently applied argument will be put forth for Koufax.

Koufax had an astounding peak, an amazing talent and 4 year run, I thought. But if Spahn is “above average, at best”, then Koufax, who has less than half of Spahn career value, must be a straight up bum.