Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would rank them like this
Grove
Johnson
Spahn
Carlton
Koufax/Kershaw even at this point anyhow gun to my head I would take Kershaw.
Hubbell

Could see flipping Johnson and Spahn.
Koufax just too short a career, however great his peak, and I think it's been show that peak benefited a lot from pitching in Dodger Stadium. Take away the good looks, the heroic pitching in pain, the not pitching on Yom Kippur, etc., I think the mystique of Koufax goes away to an extent.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would rank them like this
Grove
Johnson
Spahn
Carlton
Koufax/Kershaw even at this point anyhow gun to my head I would take Kershaw.
Hubbell

Could see flipping Johnson and Spahn.
Koufax just too short a career, however great his peak, and I think it's been show that peak benefited a lot from pitching in Dodger Stadium. Take away the good looks, the heroic pitching in pain, the not pitching on Yom Kippur, etc., I think the mystique of Koufax goes away to an extent.

Peter. I like the list. And you have some valid points.
But I would probably put Spahn ahead of Johnson and probably put Koufax ahead of Kershaw

[Bigdaddy]

What if the question was "As the GM of a new franchise, which starting LHP would you pick first, assuming you had them for their entire career?"

Now you've got to weigh peak vs. longevity. What is more important?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

What if the question was "As the GM of a new franchise, which starting LHP would you pick first, assuming you had them for their entire career?"

Now you've got to weigh peak vs. longevity. What is more important?

The guy who wins by best 4 year peak, best 5 year peak, best 7 year peak, and total career value: Grove.

[Snowman]

I should have put Kershaw on my list as well. For some reason, I was just thinking HOFers, not active players. But ya, Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax, and Clayton Kershaw.

However, as perhaps the only statistician in the room, I feel like I have to ask; what stats are you guys looking at that makes you think Lefty Grove and Warren Spahn are even in the conversation? I don't get it. Are you only looking at games played or something? Lol. Wins? Complete games? Warren Spahn was an above-average pitcher, at best, for a really long time. The one year he won the Cy Young in, the only statistical category he led the league in was Wins, a near meaningless statistic when evaluating how good a pitcher is.

Lefty Grove had like 5 strikeouts per 9 innings pitched (and he led the league in Ks his first 7 years in the league). That's indicative of how terrible pitchers were back then, not of how great he was. Nobody threw their arms out back then because pitchers in the 1920s & 30s were effectively playing catch, not because they had superior genetics or throwing motions. They were only concerned with ball placement, not throwing heat ("top right corner! haha, he'll never see THAT coming"). Lefty Grove probably wouldn't even make a major league roster today. The guy's career WHIP is 1.278! That's not good. If he was your starting pitcher on a fantasy baseball roster, you'd lose money.

The only argument against Randy Johnson is that he was a late bloomer. He had serious control issues until he was about 29 years old. But after that, he was as dominant as they come, right or left-handed.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I should have put Kershaw on my list as well. For some reason, I was just thinking HOFers, not active players. But ya, Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax, and Clayton Kershaw.

However, as perhaps the only statistician in the room, I feel like I have to ask; what stats are you guys looking at that makes you think Lefty Grove and Warren Spahn are even in the conversation? I don't get it. Are you only looking at games played or something? Lol. Wins? Complete games? Warren Spahn was an above-average pitcher, at best, for a really long time. The one year he won the Cy Young in, the only statistical category he led the league in was Wins, a near meaningless statistic when evaluating how good a pitcher is.

Lefty Grove had like 5 strikeouts per 9 innings pitched (and he led the league in Ks his first 7 years in the league). That's indicative of how terrible pitchers were back then, not of how great he was. Nobody threw their arms out back then because pitchers in the 1920s & 30s were effectively playing catch, not because they had superior genetics or throwing motions. They were only concerned with ball placement, not throwing heat ("top right corner! haha, he'll never see THAT coming"). Lefty Grove probably wouldn't even make a major league roster today. The guy's career WHIP is 1.278! That's not good. If he was your starting pitcher on a fantasy baseball roster, you'd lose money.

The only argument against Randy Johnson is that he was a late bloomer. He had serious control issues until he was about 29 years old. But after that, he was as dominant as they come, right or left-handed.

Not sure if you’re serious or just doing that thing where someone just tries to be contrarian. Spahn and Randy Johnson have basically an identical WAR and Spahn did it pitching one fewer season than Randy because of the 3 seasons he lost in WWII. Spahn’s stats are below. They are rather nice.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...pahnwa01.shtml

[Aaron Seefeldt]

Babe Ruth is by far and away the greatest lefty of all time. Everyone else is fighting for 2nd place

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Not sure if you’re serious or just doing that thing where someone just tries to be contrarian. Spahn and Randy Johnson have basically an identical WAR and Spahn did it pitching one fewer season than Randy because of the 3 seasons he lost in WWII. Spahn’s stats are below. They are rather nice.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...pahnwa01.shtml

WAR is a great statistic for some things, but it's not very useful if you're trying to compare pitchers from different eras. It's normalized by season. Replacement level talent from back when Lefty Grove was pitching probably wasn't much better than the guy in your church softball league who works at the steel plant and who was the 2nd best pitcher in his high school of 400 students. The overwhelming majority of pitchers from that era, possibly even all of them, would not make a major league roster today. They definitely improved by the time Spahn was throwing, but still, even then, replacement level players were far worse than they are today. And they make up the denominator in the WAR calculations. Being 10 wins better than some guy you just grabbed from the coal mines in 1927 is not the same thing as being 10 wins better than some kid who destroyed hitters in Cuba and who throws 99 mph heat but occasionally struggles with control in 2021, so he bounces back and forth between triple A ball and pros. Teleport that Cuban kid back to 1927 and nobody hits him. NOBODY. Not even Ruth. That kid would have a WAR of +25 back then. Just imagine some kid showing up next season throwing the ball 112 mph. Not even Mike Trout could hit him. Could you imagine Randy Johnson in his prime pitching to the hitters in the 1920s? He would probably throw 10 no hitters per year lol. The difference is night and day.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I should have put Kershaw on my list as well. For some reason, I was just thinking HOFers, not active players. But ya, Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax, and Clayton Kershaw.

However, as perhaps the only statistician in the room, I feel like I have to ask; what stats are you guys looking at that makes you think Lefty Grove and Warren Spahn are even in the conversation? I don't get it. Are you only looking at games played or something? Lol. Wins? Complete games? Warren Spahn was an above-average pitcher, at best, for a really long time. The one year he won the Cy Young in, the only statistical category he led the league in was Wins, a near meaningless statistic when evaluating how good a pitcher is.

Lefty Grove had like 5 strikeouts per 9 innings pitched (and he led the league in Ks his first 7 years in the league). That's indicative of how terrible pitchers were back then, not of how great he was. Nobody threw their arms out back then because pitchers in the 1920s & 30s were effectively playing catch, not because they had superior genetics or throwing motions. They were only concerned with ball placement, not throwing heat ("top right corner! haha, he'll never see THAT coming"). Lefty Grove probably wouldn't even make a major league roster today. The guy's career WHIP is 1.278! That's not good. If he was your starting pitcher on a fantasy baseball roster, you'd lose money.

The only argument against Randy Johnson is that he was a late bloomer. He had serious control issues until he was about 29 years old. But after that, he was as dominant as they come, right or left-handed.

Are you serious? First of all there are like 500 posts on this topic in this thread. Look at WAR, ERA+. Compare Grove’s figures to the league, number must be put into the context of time and place. Grove won 7 consecutive K crowns, are we really going to use strikeouts as an argument against him? He led the league with the lowest WHIP 5 times. A statistical argument should incorporate context. He dominated his time and place like no other lefty, and he produced pretty good counting stats.

The argument for Spahn is his extremely long career and consistently excellent but not great seasons.

Just read the thread.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think the logic of Travis' argument would also dictate that Jesse Owens was slow, Mark Spitz was mediocre, Bill Russell would be a bench player today, and so forth. It's a fair argument if you're consistent with it, but personally I think it is much more meaningful to evaluate athletes relative to their time than on an absolute scale.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The one year he won the Cy Young in, the only statistical category he led the league in was Wins, a near meaningless statistic when evaluating how good a pitcher is.

"Hey Warren, how come you didn't win more often that award that DIDN'T EXIST for the first FOURTEEN years of your major league career?"

Also, Spahn led the league in complete games in 1957, the year he won the CYA. He got 15 of the 16 votes for it, though, so obviously the consensus was he was the best that year.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would rank them like this
Grove
Johnson
Spahn
Carlton
Koufax/Kershaw even at this point anyhow gun to my head I would take Kershaw.
Hubbell

Could see flipping Johnson and Spahn.
Koufax just too short a career, however great his peak, and I think it's been show that peak benefited a lot from pitching in Dodger Stadium. Take away the good looks, the heroic pitching in pain, the not pitching on Yom Kippur, etc., I think the mystique of Koufax goes away to an extent.

C'mon man, if you're always going to harp on Kershaw's post season failure then you have to give credit to Sandy for his post season dominance!