T220 Silver - Uncut Edition

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Damn!

Well put Dave! I love it when stuff like this shows up. Thanks for sharing your find with the board. I imagine these were all pre-production samples. They must have been in some printers files all these years to survive in such nice condition.

[Pat R]

Did you ask the seller if he was the one that cut them into panels?
It's odd that some of the boxers only have the right side border of a sheet and
some of the track and field athletes only have the left side. border of a sheet.

[G1911]

I too have noticed the left/right side split; it’s possible these were on the same pre-production sheet and this is all a single sheet. I have to try and piece them together when I get back from my trip, but wouldn’t totally rule this possibility out yet. I think there are more panels that have not been seen yet in both sets. There’s so little uncut material from the ATC/American Lithographic partnership that I wouldn’t be shocked to learn multiple sets could appear on a single sheet. The smaller size cards do not appear to have been printed in this block format, with a card repeating horizontally as well instead of in vertical strips. I think this format was likely used on other larger size cards; Adam’s miscut of Summers (boxing pose) in T218-3 would suggest it likely used this format too. I’m not aware of anyone thinking E229 was an American Lithographic product before, but the checklist fits with them.

The seller did not seem eager to discuss the cards with me, I got two perfunctory replies totaling 11 words to my inquiries before I stopped inquiring further. My reading implied the seller, an antique dealer, found them or had them consigned by someone in this condition already, presumably local to the New York area. I think more intel will come out when the remainder appear for sale, presumably at an auction house.

Major credit to the seller for integrity. By the time he shipped the last 5 of them to me the Beecher and Moore had ended and he surely knew he was losing several $K by not reneging on the auction and simply not shipping them to me. With so many threads about shady dealings, this gentleman did the exact opposite of what seems to be so common in the hobby these days.

[Exhibitman]

Alas I won none of them; Greg is lucky I did not spot the first load or he'd have paid at least 5x what he spent.

I contacted the seller and he told me that someone from a major AH contacted him and told him they could be worth $5,000 each. I think that is wildly optimistic for anything except maybe the Donovan and Jim Corbett SSPs. An 8-card proof of each would exceed the known pop of finished cards. For the others, frankly, the $2K each that they were going for on eBay was a very strong price. That's the problem with these cards: thin interest. Extraordinary rarity but thin market. I used to own three of the four known uncut N310 Mayo strips. Cost me $2K to get them and I barely got my investment out after years of trying. Anything like this is a crap-shoot. I mean, we think they're unbelievably cool and valuable but does anyone else? It's a conundrum, especially when two or three dedicated bidders go to war, because you are not likely to get what you think these very rare and very obscure items are worth if you are out of the equation as a buyer. Now, if you're spending sub-$100 per item, you really can't lose much but once you get into the $1500-$2000 range, well, that's a pretty nice other card you're foregoing.

[G1911]

I can’t see the commons going that high, that seems an incredibly optimistic assessment. If anyone thinks they’re worth $5,000, please give me a call and your shipping address.

I don’t think there’s much of a maybe on the Donovan and, if it exists, the James J. Corbett. I’d be shocked if 8 Donovan’s, 2/3 of the pop, went for less than $5K on the open market properly listed. Though I hope I’m wrong, I’d love to get the Corbett too if it’s in the find and I could justify doing that sum; only 250% of a common panel.

[Exhibitman]

Here's the thing, though. They are not finished cards. No matter who they show or how unique, they are not part of the set and therefore of limited utility to a card collector. A premium item to be sure but not the world-killers one might think. $5,000 for a boxing card or card-like item is rarified territory, probably no more than a few dozen cards would draw that price. The actual cards of Donovan and Corbett might not top $5k at auction; I could see them pooping out around half of that. I've had this same issue with original art and proofs from other sets: they just don't sell for what they "should".

I think the seller made a mistake terminating the eBay auctions. I doubt they will net more consigning to an AH. I am certainly not a buyer at those price levels and you are not either, I suspect. That doesn't leave a whole heck of a lot of lunatics willing to spend like drunken sailors on these items.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Here's the thing, though. They are not finished cards. No matter who they show or how unique, they are not part of the set and therefore of limited utility to a card collector. A premium item to be sure but not the world-killers one might think. $5,000 for a boxing card or card-like item is rarified territory, probably no more than a few dozen cards would draw that price. The actual cards of Donovan and Corbett might not top $5k at auction; I could see them pooping out around half of that. I've had this same issue with original art and proofs from other sets: they just don't sell for what they "should".

I think the seller made a mistake terminating the eBay auctions. I doubt they will net more consigning to an AH. I am certainly not a buyer at those price levels and you are not either, I suspect. That doesn't leave a whole heck of a lot of lunatics willing to spend like drunken sailors on these items.

I don't normally compete at the higher tiers of the hobby; when it becomes about money it's not much fun. I have no idea what they 'should' go for. But I'm absolutely a buyer at those levels; the Beecher and Moore went to ~$2,000 because that was my and another bidders bid (who knows how high they were willing to go though; we were both over $2,200 on Dempsey when it got yanked and that was my placeholder). I'd happily pay $5K for the Corbett. The last Corbett went for like $1,750 before the juice and before the hobby explosion off memory. 8 pre-production examples for $5K would be a significant bargain in my eyes.

I'd be awfully shocked if the gentleman who bid at minimum $2,083 on Beecher would value the Corbett under $5,000. Corbett and Donovan, from their transactions I am aware of, are like ~100x a common cards price. Obviously that shrinks greatly in this price tier, form and situation, but I would be absolutely shocked if they netted less than 2.5x a common card in pre-production form.

As the $2K price was achieved with, the bidding suggests, only 3 people aware of what they actually were, I don't know if his decision was good or bad. It would seem unlikely he will lose a lot by yanking them. The only way he really loses is if it turns out only myself and the other bidder value them like this, and he consigns to an auction house that 1) the other bidder or myself does not see or 2) he picks one I have ethical qualms with and refuse to do business with for any item, which constitutes a lot of them. Otherwise, I don't see how he can lose, he'll likely have both of us competing again, but this time we won't be the only ones in the loop as they will be listed properly. On the other hand, I'm not sure there's much room to go up much more for the seller to recoup the increased fees charged by an auction house. We would need at least a third bidder to add a not insignificant percentage to our bids to make it much more profitable for the seller at the end of the day.

I really hope I am wrong and these aren't worth much and the other bidder disappears and decides he messed up, so that I can get them cheap and justify keeping them all to my grave. I'd rather get them all to display on my wall in a recreated sheet than have some expensive cardboard. I highly doubt I'm going to get any more than the 13 I have at this point after the Beecher and Moore results, though.