Shoeless Joe Jackson Auto- Fake?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Lol. Even the guy who made the arguments above agreed that I refuted several of them with the examples I gave. Clearly, you didn't even read my post.

Clearly you didn't read his post. He said only two of your were even well stated. Then he pointed out how he disagreed with them. You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else is this thread. Acting like your opinion is the only correct one is not a good look.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Clearly you didn't read his post. He said only two of your were even well stated. Then he pointed out how he disagreed with them. You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else is this thread. Acting like your opinion is the only correct one is not a good look.

There is a difference between acknowledging someone has made a worthy counterpoint, and admitting your argument has been refuted. As I read it, Thomas was doing the first, not the second, thing.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by rats60

Clearly you didn't read his post. He said only two of your were even well stated. Then he pointed out how he disagreed with them. You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else is this thread. Acting like your opinion is the only correct one is not a good look.

I have told him so on several occasions now. Proves he is just here to argue/debate for the sake of arguing/debating.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I have told him so on several occasions now. Proves he is just here to argue/debate for the sake of arguing/debating.

He seems to have too much ego invested in these discussions. I disagree with many people frequently, rats60 and Mark17 and packs certainly, but we're just enjoying the give and take and not taking it personally or looking to win.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He seems to have too much ego invested in these discussions. I disagree with many people frequently, rats60 and Mark17 and packs certainly, but we're just enjoying the give and take and not taking it personally or looking to win.

This has nothing to do with ego. I'm just an idiot. I'm basically allowing myself to continue in a conversation with a room full of crazy people who are pointing at a red stop sign and saying it's blue. Then my dumbass goes and pulls up examples of red and blue on a color chart and uploads photos of red stop signs to prove that the stop sign in question is red, not blue. Then the net54 asylum inamtes respond by saying "that's just your opinion".

If we can't all agree that I clearly disproved at least those 3 points listed above, then I'll just move on and be done with this thread because it has clearly become something other than an honest conversation on your end. But you should expect me to address you condescendingly in all future interactions if that is the position you wish to take.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is the great self-deception of the narcissist -- he is the only intelligent person in the room and everyone else is stupid. Or crazy. Man, it must be lonely at the top.

Yes, you showed that for a couple of the apparent unique features of the 1911 signature but not all, there was another exemplar that appeared to have the same feature or close to it. Still, for each of those features, and I think I am correct about this, MOST of his known signatures did not have that feature. So the significance is still very much a matter of opinion.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, you showed that for a couple of the apparent unique features of the 1911 signature but not all, there was another exemplar that appeared to have the same feature or close to it.

Thank you. This is the only thing I'm asking of people who are engaging in this conversation. All I ask is that people are honest and that they accept basic facts. If we can't have that, then there's no point in discussing. There are many other things we can have a difference of opinion on, and that's fine. But if we start saying things like "that's just your opinion" on whether or not a line goes up or down, then we're all just wasting our time here.

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by Snowman

But if we start saying things like "that's just your opinion" on whether or not a line goes up or down, then we're all just wasting our time here.

If someone said this I must have missed it.

Here is what I said:
"majority of his other signatures end with a downward stroke with some ending with a straight/even stroke. This one has an obvious up stroke"

and then

"Of the up tail endings you posted one is a straight line I would say, one slight up tail after a long straight stroke, and one long gradual but obvious. Yet none are done in a sharp quick stroke that matches the short sharp one on the photo."

And this is the one example (attached) you showed to counter my point which I am talking about when I said "one is a straight line I would say"...

Yes one clearly goes up and one does not comparatively (or down for that matter)...thus is pretty much looks like a straight line

I appreciate a dissenting view point and opinions and again as I have said before you made some good points which causes me to reevaluate and think more, but now I do think you are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing at this point, which is fine but Im not really interested in that if people are going to be misquoted, taken out of context, accused of making "false claims" (I take umbrage to the charge that I have made "false claims") when this is all entirely subjective for the most part, and people are having to repeat themselves bc it seems like you have either not read previous posts or failed to grasp what was trying to be said (which might not be your fault as that could be someone, myself included, doing a poor job of explaining).

Again thanks for the counter points and the time in doing that I do appreciate that, but given all the rest... Im done engaging and trying to explain myself as I thought I did well enough and clarified when asked and where I thought needed and if not then sorry I tried best way I could.

Yall have fun with this

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Thank you. This is the only thing I'm asking of people who are engaging in this conversation. All I ask is that people are honest and that they accept basic facts. If we can't have that, then there's no point in discussing. There are many other things we can have a difference of opinion on, and that's fine. But if we start saying things like "that's just your opinion" on whether or not a line goes up or down, then we're all just wasting our time here.

Travis/Snowman, That is what all of you are doing, just wasting your time.

You stated to others that you look to deal in facts, not opinions, right? When it comes to autographs, I don't know if you can qualfy anyone as an "expert", since to begin with it is a proven and known FACT that no matter how hard someone tries, they can never sign their own name exactly the same way twice. So if the person doing the signing can't even duplicate their own signature, how is some third party going to be able to tell the difference between that person's true signature and that of a skilled forger? And I believe that is one of the main reasons so-called "experts" can determine the use of an auto-pen, because all the signatures are exactly the same.

Truth and FACT is, all a so-called autograph "expert" can prove with 100% certainty is that an autograph is fake, like when the item signed wasn't created till after the alleged signer had already passed away, or the ink is analyzed by a chemist and found not to be old enough to have been available when the alleged signer was still alive (ie: T206 cards autographed with Sharpies). Truth and FACT is, unless they actually witnessed a person signing their name on an item, no so-called "expert" can guarantee with 100% certainty that anyone's autograph is legitimately signed by the alleged signer.

So unless some autographed item is definitively proven to be 100% fake, and there was no "expert" on hand that actually saw the item being signed by the alleged signer, the chances of any autograph being legitimate, or fake, is going to be between 1% and 99% (and I'm using round numbers so don't someone be a jerk and say it should be 99.9999...%, or something like that).

Now here is the biggest and most important FACT of all. Since pretty much all autographs will likely fall into this wide range of uncertainty somewhere between 1% and 99% as to whether they are legit or not, it will be up to the collecting public at large to decide whether or not a particular autograph is legit or fake. The so-called autograph "experts" do not, I repeat, DO NOT, decide on behalf of autograph collectors if something is legit. Not having seen an item actually being signed, all any "expert" can do is offer their OPINION on whether or not they think any particular autograph is real or fake. And that "expert(s)" OPINION is then taken into account by the collecting public, along with all other pertinent facts, stories, evidence, provenance, along with the multitude of thoughts and opinions of all the autograph "non-experts" out there, and then the overall collecting public will be the one to decide if they accept a particular autographed item as real, or not. And from all the back and forth arguing going on in this thread, guess what? It really doesn't matter because the collecting public has already decreed they feel it is legit by the simple, incontrovertible fact that at least two collectors saw fit to be willing to pay out over $1M for this signed Joe Jackson picture, whether it was truly his signature or not. We on Net54 make up an extremely small portion of the overall collecting community, especially in light of the recent surge in new collectors/investors, and their apparent obscene amounts of disposable cash to spend on such collectibles. And furthermore, whether we like it or not, this overall collecting community now includes these new people and their money. And another FACT, they, along with rest of us "old time" collectors, effectively vote for and show how we feel about an item's legitimacy and value by the dollars we are willing to pay for it. And let's face it, even with all the crazy money being thrown around in the hobby today, any time you see a single item go for over $1M, that is still extremely rare and speaks to the acceptance and deemed authenticity of an item in the eyes of the collecting community today.

So you guys can go back and forth about if it is real or not, the collecting public, not the "experts", have already decided it is real. Or if nothing else, due to all the story and drama surrounding the alleged Jackson autograph on this photo, it is considered as the most valuable baseball related autograph I've ever heard of.

Continuing to argue about this is like the other thread arguing about who is the greatest pre-war ballplayer, which got into a pissing match between Cobb and Ruth proponets. Truth is, there is no correct answer as pre-war baseball is split into two very distinct eras with Cobb playing more in the deadball era and Ruth in the live ball era. They are both great in their own ways and styles of play. I learned Ruth supporters can be very opinionated and unwilling to have any openess to facts, and merely say they are right, and have no open mindedness at all. They are also good at accusing people of saying things they didn't say or mean, because that is what they think. And the same stubborness and unwavering opinions are being shown on this thread as well. And for the record, Ruth is not a five tool player, which many people look at in determing if a player is great or not. Doesn't mean he's better or worse than Cobb, who should be considered a five tool player, just that is one thing Ruth wasn't, but Cobb was.

And Travis/Snowman, I'm not directing this at, or specifically picking on you. You were just the last person to post when I started this response. LOL Guys, let this thread go. There is no right or wrong answer. And the price paid for the picture says it is considered worth a helluva lot, regardless!!!

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is the great self-deception of the narcissist -- he is the only intelligent person in the room and everyone else is stupid. Or crazy. Man, it must be lonely at the top.

Yes, you showed that for a couple of the apparent unique features of the 1911 signature but not all, there was another exemplar that appeared to have the same feature or close to it. Still, for each of those features, and I think I am correct about this, MOST of his known signatures did not have that feature. So the significance is still very much a matter of opinion.

And at the end of the day, not sure why each of us cannot decide for ourselves if we feel good with the authentication or not If not then we should not get abused and described as crazy while the accuser is simply decides be is the only one being courageous. Talk about someone being full of themselves. WOW.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by rats60

Clearly you didn't read his post. He said only two of your were even well stated. Then he pointed out how he disagreed with them. You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else is this thread. Acting like your opinion is the only correct one is not a good look.

I'll clarify for you since apparently you're not getting this. Go read the post again, because clearly you didn't even read it. I wasn't offering an "opinion" in most of those counter arguments. He made numerous false claims. I simply posted examples to show that his claims were false. You don't get to have an "opinion" on whether or not a line goes up. The line either goes up or it doesn't. You don't get to have an opinion on whether or not there are wide gaps between the letters in the example photos I posted. The gaps are either present or they are not (and in these examples they are extremely clear and obvious gaps). You don't get to have an opinion on whether or not the tail of his J's sometimes go up, reaching near the top of the J. They either do or they don't. Each of these examples were presented by him as reasons for why the autograph is fake. I simply provided photographs of known examples that irrefutably disproved those claims. You don't get to say "oh that's just your opinion" or say "agree to disagree" or any such nonsense. I swear you guys will sit here and argue that red is blue and 2 is 4.