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#201
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Good spot and interesting observation Paul. For Rube anyway it seems they needed to overlay another signature to make the display fit together without a bunch of white borders as he didn't sign over the photo - so maybe they printed another unsigned photo and added a copy signature to it for him to make the display work. Matty, McGraw, and others are perfect matches for their signed photos though, so it is hard to think that these are anything but the signed originals.
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Collection: https://www.flickr.com/photos/132359235@N05/sets/ Ebay listings: https://www.ebay.com/sch/harrydoyle/...p2047675.l2562 |
#202
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Sorry but its asinine to compare a price between a torn notebook page with numbers, to a signed type one photo.
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"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
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Should be "it's" asinine, not "its." And it's not just numbers, but also written names. Given the rarity of anything written by Jackson, one would absolutely think that a legitimate item with numbers and names would sell for more than $763 and $0. Certainly not $1.4 million, but if the writing is indeed authentic it would rewrite history with regard to the extent of his illiteracy.
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#204
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It should be noted that, for the notebook, I don't see anyone claiming that Jackson wrote everything in it. I think this was a Mastronet item way back in the day-- I am sure there is more history that goes with it than the short auction descriptions I could find. I just remembered it and thought I should post to show he could hold a pen to write numbers. I seem to recall another page from it where there was a shaky "Joe" written next to some of the numbers that was attributed to Jackson, so some of the other writing in there could have been his wife, customers, etc. Not sure - shared because hopefully someone will be able to share more.
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Collection: https://www.flickr.com/photos/132359235@N05/sets/ Ebay listings: https://www.ebay.com/sch/harrydoyle/...p2047675.l2562 |
#205
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In terms of another authenticated JJ autograph, wasn't there a scrap piece of paper that had 3 Joe Jackson signatures on it - a progression of attempts to sig his name - that was cut up and sold? I don't recall the origins of that, but I recall all 3 being authenticated by PSA. I'm only asking as another comparison piece.
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For information on baseball-related cigarette and tobacco packs, visit www.baseballandtobacco.com. |
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If I recall correctly the notebook had family providence and that was very likely his scribbling...not sure on the envelope. Again just going off memory right now but I think the envelope had two attempts on the back and was bought and cut up by a card company and special cut signature cards made of them, one is a duel cut of "Jo" and "Pete" Rose (attached). ---as for debating the 1911 photo--- Folks here seem strong leaning one way or the other, I can make a good case it is not his signature and believe there are more red flags than green flags...but others have made a few good green flag points (Jobu for one) and I really feel one or two people are just wanting to troll and argue here much like in other "controversial" topic threads (I skip past their posts honestly). Some very respected collectors have expressed it is fake both publicly and privately and that only strengthens my thought it is fake. In the end only one person knows and he died a long time ago. Im happy to express my thoughts if anyone is interest in messages but I just feel like this post is beating a dead horse or two now Last edited by ThomasL; 10-13-2021 at 09:51 PM. |
#207
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The notepad I think had the one "Joe" written and it was likely someone elses named Joe and it was his charge account notation but possibly written by Jackson so not really his signature per say but him writing "Joe" like he would his own name...attached photo
Last edited by ThomasL; 10-13-2021 at 09:56 PM. |
#208
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You keep saying that. Perhaps you could share these arguments with the rest of us? It is the purpose of this thread after all.
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#209
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They have already been shared in this thread.
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#210
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I worked with a guy who is for sure literate. He will not write unless he's almost forced to. I was after him to sign his work orders once the job was finished, so I didn't come in a day later and waste time redoing it. After a couple weeks he finally gave in and wrote his name on one. It took him 5 minutes, and made Jacksons signature look good. Apparently he has some bad dyslexia. We agreed that signing or initialing wasn't going to work but he would make a checkmark, x or maybe one initial. Numbers are less of a problem except he writes so seldom it's also a slow thing. When you think about it, he had little need to write to play baseball. But it would be a big benefit in running a store. |
#211
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I was way ahead on fine motor skills, way behind on large motor skills. I could handle building some pretty detailed models before I was 6, 1/72 biplanes. but struck out in kickball - regularly.... Like who does that?? Apparently me. Large motor skills didn't get to even as much as average until maybe 8th grade. |
#212
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I don't think writing is a motor skill issue. It's muscle memory and repetition. I gave the example before of trying to write with your weak hand. My motor skills are highly developed over the course of my life. I still can't write with my weak hand because I don't have the muscle memory or repetition to do it.
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#213
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-14-2021 at 11:28 AM. |
#214
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Writing is considered part of fine motor skills*. Writing well is muscle memory and repetition. But both grandfathers were tool and die makers, and I know for sure one was ambidextrous. For a brief time, maybe a week I was trying to train myself to do some of Davincis tricks - mirror writing, writing something with the left hand of the page left handed and the right side right handed, writing two different things at the same time.... Totally impossible except for the mirror writing. *It's sort of a part of one of the childhood developmental "tests" the doctors give. They have the kid copy a plus sign and circle. It tests fine motor, visual perception and eye/hand coordination all at once. Anything close to a + is a pass, as is any closed figure, even if it's not all that round. Last edited by steve B; 10-14-2021 at 11:30 AM. Reason: fixed wrong word |
#215
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No, he most certainly has not even attempted to make that case here. All he has said was "he was illiterate", and "read the thread from 2015 (which is also completely void of any good arguments)", and "many experts agree", and "the Joe Jackson Museum deserves more respect!", and "snowman is an ignoramus" and other such gems.
I am completely open to arguments as to why this isn't his signature. I have no skin in the game. And my default position on any potential Joe Jackson autograph is that the likelihood of it being a fake is extremely high. I'm looking for the arguments on both sides here, and thus far, the 'nay' side is lacking here in this thread. |
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
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Last time for me...
Most of this I have already said if you read my posts, some of this I have not posted bc I only thought the strongest point should be made and in an effort to save time and space didn’t feel like getting into the weeds that deep was needed…but here ya go…cant say Im not a good sport even though I don’t like being baited into this (I am not a document expert or authenticator so I guess that can always be thrown out there against my observations which is completely fine)
1 Signature is too large – yes this matter a lot as Jackson signed documents and one paper alongside other signers, he had the opportunity and a visual example right there to write bigger and still chose to write very small. He chose to write small so this would be the only time he ever he wrote a jumbo signature 2 Never signed a photo before or after this one and he had many 5x7 photos later in life he would give out for autograph requests…all signed by his wife. 3 Signature is too smooth and flows too well for Jackson – While it looks shaky, compared to his other signature it is not shaky like they are (the Js in particular). 4 Lack of obvious hesitation points throughout or large ink pools – Jackson could hardly write his own name and as you can see in most of his other signature he stops and starts a lot which leaves hesitation points and larger paths of ink. This one doesn’t have those 5 The Js don’t match at all…too loopy, the space in between the loops too big, no shakiness or hesitation points or what I call dimples in the top left side of the Js and they end with a big tail up and to the left almost as high as the top of the J. All of which is inconsistent with his other signatures 6 space between Joe and Jackson is very large compared to other signatures 7 the A and the C don’t have the same bottom to them here, A has a slight point and the C is curved, whereas if you look at other signatures the A and the C match each other (either both curved or both a slight point) 8 the “cks” section: Jackson’s C kind of hangs over the K or looks like chasing it like it is trying to eat it (pacman), this photo it is not doing that; in his other signatures the C and K are generally at the same level at their high points and they are not here as the K is much taller; the K is closed at the bottom with a loop upward and an ending that looks nothing like his other signatures; the bottom of the S has the same kind of bottom that dips down then back up, this also is not consistent with other Jackson signatures 9 the ending: majority of his other signatures end with a downward stroke with some ending with a straight/even stroke. This one has an obvious up stroke These are the main points for me and a document expert can probably pick up on things about the E O and A. I think they are the closest letters made that resemble Jackson’s signature so I left those out. The logistics of when where and how the photo was signed and the bottom line added also throws doubt on it with me… So what is GOOD about it: The photo is a period photo and came from a person who would be connected with the Indians. That proves provenance of the photo not the signature. Maybe 3 letters kind of match…so when I say the red flags outweigh the green ones with me that’s what I mean. (I hope more will go into what they feel is good about the signature itself) Richard Simon and Ron Keurajian are well respected experts who have publicly given their opinions, both said fake, I have private messages from two others (one who does post on here from time to time) that also said it was fake and no Im not going to name them bc if they want to say it publicly that is up to them. This also factors in for me. The financial gain and pressure to pass this could easily be seen as a motivating factor in pushing it from let’s say “questionable” at best to “authentic” and PSA has passed bad signatures before and turned down good ones before so it is more than reasonable to question their judgement and motives here. Again this is just my opinion on it and my own analysis of it and I am not a forensic document trained expert (I wouldnt mind being one though and will gladly accept an opportunity to get that training). Thomas L Saunders (hope I made sense with this) Last edited by ThomasL; 10-14-2021 at 01:57 PM. |
#218
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Bravo! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Thanks, Jason Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/ |
#219
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Other than that, Thomas, it's good? Thank you for taking the time, very helpful.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-14-2021 at 02:03 PM. |
#220
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I will add that this was authenticated before Kevin Keating joined PSA (that might carry some weight with some folks on here) I personally regard JSA higher than PSA and they also passed it for Heritage according to their description in 2015, I dont know if anyone has pointed that out but should be noted as well and would go in the green flag side you could say. Im sure Spence himself examined it and I would love to hear his breakdown of why he passed it. Personally I think Frank Smith wrote it all with the intent of creating a facsimile signature and probably had access to something Joe Jackson actually did sign and did his best to replicate it...maybe a 1910 or 1911 contract stored at the stadium or maybe a permission release for use of his image in print (seems reasonable that given 3-4 years of practice he would have been able to write his name by 1911). But looking at it in person and examining it for sure would help (as would ink analysis) and you have to acknowledge that PSA and JSA had that advantage. Last edited by ThomasL; 10-14-2021 at 03:31 PM. |
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It makes sense to me that Smith wrote it and picked up on some of the characteristics of the exemplar he had but not in an exact way. That could explain the odd "e" in Alexandria.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-14-2021 at 03:31 PM. |
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Thank you for taking the time to spell out your arguments. I said earlier that you hadn't provided any good arguments for why this signature is fake. After reading your post, I still stand by that statement. Nearly every single claim you made is false, in my opinion. I have responded to each claim below with specific examples of his signatures that clearly refute these claims. Quote:
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#223
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I think the only two points you countered well here were the tall K and to an extent the pacman C (I didnt have those in my file but still majority of time the C has that long hanging top) and the up tail ending sort of...
Of the up tail endings you posted one is a straight line I would say, one slight up tail after a long straight stroke, and one long gradual but obvious. Yet none are done in a sharp quick stroke that matches the short sharp one on the photo. The other best case you made was smooth signature with one example (where all others arent even close) Yes that one signature (I think a 1916 voucher) it appears smooth compared to his others but it has obvious hesitation points on the Js, e, a and k so not as smooth as this photo (you are wrong about the hesitation points on the photo...maybe one on an O but that;s it...and the Js have zero which is not like his signature) Sure there could be variations in signatures and no two are the same and all that. But to accept it is authentic means to accept he broke with all of those habits at the same time and only did that in a full signature once in his life....I think it takes a bigger leap of faith to accept that over the likelihood it is not his signature...but thats just me. This one looks nothing like his other signatures BUT you think it does and you are entitled to think whatever you like. Like I said maybe he signed this photo, an item he never signed ever again and had the opportunity to all the time later in life, in a way and style that he never used ever again. Last edited by ThomasL; 10-15-2021 at 07:38 AM. |
#224
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Good points made on both sides. Many thanks to both contributors for devoting the time and effort to explain their respective rationales. Some good points made both ways.
I don't think we will ever achieve complete clarity on this one. I lean towards it being not authentic, but you have to allow for significant variance, considering the signer was not even literate. And the photo itself comes with good provenance. Regardless, it seems like a huge price to pay for a piece with such doubt hanging over its head. But it's not the first time a buyer has paid an ungodly sum, based on optimism or wishful thinking. And it certainly won't be the last! |
#225
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Leaving Grad aside, has any widely respected autograph expert ever said yes to the 1911 photo? Perhaps that "appeal to authority" doesn't mean much to some people, but I would like to know.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-15-2021 at 12:17 PM. |
#226
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In post #220 above, Thomas mentions that JSA also authenticated this photo back when it was for sale through Heritage in 2015. Worth noting is that both PSA and JSA would have had the advantage of holding the entire portfolio of photos together in hand at the time of authentication. Without that portfolio, I doubt it would have been authenticated by either, but that's just speculation obviously.
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#227
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That's really not how things are supposed to be done though. And I think that's my issue overall with this piece. Provenance should not matter one iota when it comes to authentication. We are all conditioned not to believe grandpa's attic story. It should either be authentic or not authentic or an opinion can't be rendered and that conclusion should be made based on what you're looking at.
Last edited by packs; 10-15-2021 at 01:02 PM. |
#228
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I've seen so many (alleged) mistakes by JSA (read about them, not witnessed personally) that that doesn't do much for me.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#229
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-15-2021 at 01:11 PM. |
#230
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Oh well if he was illiterate, his signature would likely change size and shape every time. Abnormally so if he had to really concentrate.
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
#231
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But the same issues with weighing provenance plague memorabilia. I remember someone telling a story about a player selling milestone home run balls two or three times over saying a different ball was the home run ball every time. They were supposed to be real because of the provenance. But they weren't. Last edited by packs; 10-15-2021 at 01:26 PM. |
#232
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-15-2021 at 01:31 PM. |
#233
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I'm reminded of the late 90s and early 2000s when Sony dominated the electronics market, becoming the top seller of TVs by a fairly wide margin. If you were to go into a TV repair shop and ask them which TVs they spent the most time repairing, every single one of them would have answered "Sony". The number of complaints began to mount, and Sony eventually began to garner a reputation for selling poorly made TVs. However, the actual defect rates were better than the competition, but since Sony dominated the market, they also dominated the repair market, causing a major hit to their reputation. PSA and JSA dominate the authentication market, so it would make sense for them to also dominate the "oops, we fucked up" market as well. The number that ultimately should matter most is one that is nearly impossible for us to get, which is the ratio of correctly authenticated items to incorrectly authenticated items. I don't know how many mistakes we should expect to see from them, but I do know that whatever the number is, it's always going to be too high for some significant percentage of collectors. |
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I get that but at the same time, on many of these items if I recall correctly, other people pointed to obvious issues which made the errors seem really egregious. And these items supposedly are rigorously scrutinized individually. I don't think that's quite analogous to an inevitable flaw rate in mass production or even the PSA assembly line.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-15-2021 at 01:40 PM. |
#235
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In the case of autographs, the only way to truly be 100% certain it was signed by the person in question is if you witnessed it being signed yourself. Absent that, there is no 100% certainty, and thus you are forced to consider other factors, such as provenance surrounding such items and the circumstances of their being signed. This is done to determine where on the scale of 0% - 100% the consensus opinion of the public ends up falling as to the authenticity of an autograph. And it is the public at large that really ends up determining if an autograph is authentic or not. The opinions of so called "experts", just like the provenance and other known factors surrounding an autographed item, are simply contributing factors used by the public to decide for themselves if they will accept an alleged autograph is authentic, or not. And in the case of this alleged Jackson autograph it is never more true as you have "experts" giving completely opposite opinions, making other factors such as provenance, all the more important in shaping final public opinion. And don't discount the fact that the public sees someone pony up $1.4M for the item, and a very large portion become swayed and lean towards thinking no one in their right mind would pay that kind of money for something that wasn't authentic. That in and of itself goes a long way for saying it is a legit auto, and has already been accepted as such by a large part of the collecting public, regardless of what any of us think or say on here. |
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Totally agree but I also think it's important to remember authentication is an opinion and will always be. I'm not asking anyone to find a way to create fact out of something you can't know.
I do think there are instances, like this one, where an opinion should not be given one way or the other. But I do think it's appropriate for a buyer to hear the story associated with an item and make their own decision. I just don't think that story should be taken as fact by the authenticator no matter how trustworthy the source. And I don't say that because people shouldn't be believed. I say that because the opinion is supposed to be unbiased and about the item being examined. |
#237
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Here's what I'm 100% certain of when it comes to autographs, that there are many autographs out there that are deemed fakes, but in actuality are real, and there are also many that are recognized as real that are actually fakes. |
#238
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This is why I have never collected autographs and never will. I can't imagine the feeling I'd have, to build a nice collection of vintage signatures, but always knowing that some percentage of them were, in fact, fakes. Further, not knowing which ones they were. Look at how many times people post on the autograph forum asking if a signature is good, and some respond "yes" and some "no." It isn't enough to just say: "Know what you are buying," or: "Only buy from trusted sources." With autographs, establishing authenticity is often impossible. Cards may be altered and GU jerseys or bats might be restored, but at least their authenticity is usually easy to determine. |
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Unless of course you get autographs signed in person yourself. That way you know they're legit. |
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And that doesn't work for the vintage guys, regardless. |
#241
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For example, what if your Grandfather had gotten a card signed by Babe Ruth in person, and then years down the road told you the story and then gave it to you. Now would that make a difference to you? |
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Going back to the early-'70s, I've always taken a camera to signings. Many of those pix are posted in another thread here, and in some of them you can see the actual item being signed. Even with that, if I ever tried to sell them I can totally see someone saying, "Yeah, but how do I know that's the EXACT SAME 1973 Topps Mays that Willie is signing in that picture?"
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#243
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"JSA Mistakenly identifies coach George Jendrus Anderson as HOF'er George "Sparky" Anderson who was only 14 years old in 1948 and 10 years away from his major league debut." Of course if they have the wrong George Anderson how the hell did they authenticate the autograph? EDIT: This was a mistake and my apologies to JSA. This is a PSA authenticated piece, NOT JSA.
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 10-16-2021 at 07:58 PM. |
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TPA do turn away good autographs I know for a fact...Im sure there are several stories like this out there and I dont remember which company he submitted to, but this is a story a friend of mine related to me:
He would attend New York Yankee spring training almost every year in the 60s-70s era and had tons of autographs of those players he got in person including many Thurman Munson signatures...every one of those Munson sigs he sent in was rejected. I have no doubt JSA makes mistakes but I personally think they make less and I believe are the preferred authenticator of REA which I love as an auction house (they treat people right)...Beckett is the worst at autographs...PSA might be a little better after Keating joined them...but they have a bad track record. Obviously a big problem for them all is that they like have authenticated bad signatures when they first started, or assumed a signature was authentic that might have sold in a high profile auction (Barry Halper) that wasnt and those are examples they use in their databases. They need to go back and reevaluate and purge bad and questionable signatures from their files...I dont know if they do this or not but they should, it would help. The some of the best advice I got about collecting autographs is if it makes you feel bad or you question it in any way...dont buy it Last edited by ThomasL; 10-16-2021 at 09:52 AM. |
#245
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also would share this story:
I have bought 2 Happy Felsch signatures that I submitted and were rejected by JSA, one I thought was questionable and likely fake (came with a money back guarantee) and one that I think was 100% authentic but was signed on a dark part of a newspaper picture so hard to see. Believe I got my money back on both but obviously lost out on the fees for submission. I have never submitted to PSA, though I think I would knowing Keating is on their team now which helps, and never will submit to Beckett. Honestly I prefer that an authenticator errs on the side of caution, sure they will fail authentic signatures some times but they will also filter out the fakes more often than not...just my opinion on it and this like everything else is very debatable. But if a collector is knowledgeable, has a good eye and is 100% comfortable with a signature Im in the camp of dont waste your money bc you probably know better than any TPA....if you are looking to sell unfortunately that goes out the window now unless you are one of a handful of dealers known inside the collector's universe Last edited by ThomasL; 10-16-2021 at 10:06 AM. |
#246
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They also authenticated the T206s outed on this board in Sharpie marker. https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262673 But then, so did SGC and one got through PSA as well.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
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Regardless, you should continue to ridicule and berate me. It's a good look. People love reading that stuff. |
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Ridiculing and berating? Nah you will know when I am doing that. Just bothered by your contrarian know it all attitude. I will try to do better.
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
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Fake Shoeless Joe - great BS story though | Shoeless Moe | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 4 | 01-08-2011 12:16 AM |
Fake Shoeless Joe Rookie Card? | Shoeless Moe | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 14 | 11-16-2010 10:18 AM |
Shoeless Joe Jackson E90-1 on E Bay | Archive | Ebay, Auction and other Venues Announcement- B/S/T | 0 | 11-28-2007 09:09 AM |