Restored Honus Wagner at SCP Auctions

[mrreality68]

A few hours and a few bids later and the auction price on the Wagner jumped fast.

$835k before BP and $1 million with buyers premium.

I guess bidders are looking at as a restoration that adds value versus altered and potentially devalued.

Either that or just to be to able to get the “Holy Grail” of baseball Cards

Looks like their are interested bidders and things will get interesting

[rats60]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

A few hours and a few bids later and the auction price on the Wagner jumped fast.

$835k before BP and $1 million with buyers premium.

I guess bidders are looking at as a restoration that adds value versus altered and potentially devalued.

Either that or just to be to able to get the “Holy Grail” of baseball Cards

Looks like their are interested bidders and things will get interesting

The last Wagner graded A brought 2.5 million dollars. We will see if this one can match that or if this restoration devalued the card.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

A few hours and a few bids later and the auction price on the Wagner jumped fast.

$835k before BP and $1 million with buyers premium.

I guess bidders are looking at as a restoration that adds value versus altered and potentially devalued.

Either that or just to be to able to get the “Holy Grail” of baseball Cards

Looks like their are interested bidders and things will get interesting

This item has a reserve. Here is how the auction rules read on reserves:

RESERVES A Reserve price is a minimum bid below which the lot will not be sold. Accordingly, if the reserve price is not met at the conclusion of the auction, the lot will not be sold. Reserve bid prices are not publicly available and will not be published. Any item with an unmet reserve will be annotated with "Reserve Not Met" in the online bidding. SCP may implement this reserve by bidding on behalf of the consigner and may place a bid up to the amount one increment below the reserve, by placing successive bids if necessary. No reserve bids placed by SCP will be executed at a level greater than one bid below the actual reserve. Any lot that had an unmet reserve at the conclusion of the auction will show as a "PASS" in the online catalog. Reserves when in place will be pre-determined and set within the auction software prior to the start of the auction. Maximum bids will be treated as straight bids on items with reserves until the reserve price is met. If you place a maximum bid in excess of a reserve amount that has not yet been met, your bid will automatically be placed at the reserve price. All bids placed after a reserve has been met will continue with normal bidding increments unless straight bids are placed by a bidder.

The point is we have no idea how many, if any, of these recent bids are anything more than the house making consecutive bids on behalf of the consignor to give the impression of bidder interest (which is exactly what is needed to generate the highest price). Maybe SCP read Jeff's prior post (#22) in this thread commenting on the lack of bidding the first day of bidding? Suddenly the bids started coming in and in Jeff's next post 13 hours later the bidding (with the BP) had hit the psychologically significant $1M level.

This to me well symbolizes the deceptive (but legal aspect) of the auction business -- the ability of the house to exercise bids on behalf of the consignor up to (the low end of) the item's estimated value. This tactic is universally employed by all prominent HAs across all fields of collecting, and absent federal legislation prohibiting the practice almost certainly will continue. HAs are expected by their consignors (and shareholders) to generate the highest possible prices for their consignors, and what state would dare proscribe the practice and induce HAs thinking of setting up/already headquartered in their jurisdictions to flee to a neighboring state? Not to mention too I doubt these states mind receiving the extra sales/use tax they receive by higher auctions prices.

I have referred to this practice of HAs exercising secret bids on behalf of the consignor to induce prospective bidders to believe there is genuine market interest at those levels as legalized fraud. Yes, if one reads the fine print one can be put on notice of the practice and therefore the uncertainty of the genuineness of any bid below the reserve price. But IMO it is the exception, not the rule, that auction observers are aware of what the auction rules allow to take place behind the scenes. Isn't the premise behind the illegality of fraudulent practices society's refusal to be a party to inducing people to believe something that in fact is not true, all with the objective of getting a person to be willing to pay something that otherwise he/she would not pay? HAs will respond that by disclosing in the rules that the practice exists, therefore bidders/observers have been fairly put on notice. But is that really true? At the end of the day why should a bidder need to have any uncertainty whether he/she is bidding against a "real" person?

[chriskim]

"SCP may implement this reserve by bidding on behalf of the consigner and may place a bid up to the amount one increment below the reserve, by placing successive bids if necessary. No reserve bids placed by SCP will be executed at a level greater than one bid below the actual reserve."

^^^^ no good!!!!


On top of that..... I know SCP would call underbidders after auction is over and offer u items at the reserve plus juice.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

This item has a reserve. Here is how the auction rules read on reserves: RESERVES A Reserve price is a minimum bid below which the lot will not be sold. Accordingly, if the reserve price is not met at the conclusion of the auction, the lot will not be sold. Reserve bid prices are not publicly available and will not be published. Any item with an unmet reserve will be annotated with "Reserve Not Met" in the online bidding. SCP may implement this reserve by bidding on behalf of the consigner and may place a bid up to the amount one increment below the reserve, by placing successive bids if necessary. No reserve bids placed by SCP will be executed at a level greater than one bid below the actual reserve. Any lot that had an unmet reserve at the conclusion of the auction will show as a "PASS" in the online catalog. Reserves when in place will be pre-determined and set within the auction software prior to the start of the auction. Maximum bids will be treated as straight bids on items with reserves until the reserve price is met. If you place a maximum bid in excess of a reserve amount that has not yet been met, your bid will automatically be placed at the reserve price. All bids placed after a reserve has been met will continue with normal bidding increments unless straight bids are placed by a bidder.

The point is we have no idea how many, if any, of these recent bids are anything more than the house making consecutive bids on behalf of the consignor to give the impression of bidder interest (which is exactly what is needed to generate the highest price). Maybe SCP read Jeff's prior post (#22) in this thread commenting on the lack of bidding the first day of bidding? Suddenly the bids started coming in and in Jeff's next post 13 hours later the bidding (with the BP) had hit the psychologically significant $1M level.

This to me well symbolizes the deceptive (but legal aspect) of the auction business -- the ability of the house to exercise bids on behalf of the consignor up to (the low end of) the item's estimated value. This tactic is universally employed by all prominent HAs across all fields of collecting, and absent federal legislation prohibiting the practice almost certainly will continue. HAs are expected by their consignors (and shareholders) to generate the highest possible prices for their consignors, and what state would dare proscribe the practice and induce HAs thinking of setting up/already headquartered in their jurisdictions to flee to a neighboring state? Not to mention too I doubt these states mind receiving the extra sales/use tax they receive by higher auctions prices.

I have referred to this practice of HAs exercising secret bids on behalf of the consignor to induce prospective bidders to believe there is genuine market interest at those levels as legalized fraud. Yes, if one reads the fine print one can be put on notice of the practice and therefore the uncertainty of the genuineness of any bid below the reserve price. But IMO it is the exception, not the rule, that auction observers are aware of what the auction rules allow to take place behind the scenes. Isn't the premise behind the illegality of fraudulent practices society's refusal to be a party to inducing people to believe something that in fact is not true, all with the objective of getting a person to be willing to pay something that otherwise he/she would not pay? HAs will respond that by disclosing in the rules that the practice exists, therefore bidders/observers have been fairly put on notice. But is that really true? At the end of the day why should a bidder need to have any uncertainty whether he/she is bidding against a "real" person?

The distinction between this practice and shill bidding strikes me as negligible. I thought AH's prohibited consignors from bidding on their own items. How is the AH doing it for them any different?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I thought AH's prohibited consignors from bidding on their own items. How is the AH doing it for them any different?

It's legal and understandable, IMO, if the hidden reserve was agreed to with the consignor before the auction started. If not, it's effectively shill bidding. The auctionhouse is tasked to sell the item for at least the minimum the seller will accept when the seller sets a reserve. If the card sits there at $400,000 for a couple of weeks, then it most likely won't sell at/above the reserve at the end.

[Jewish-collector]

Too bad you can't un-restore a card.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Too bad you can't un-restore a card.

I'm sure if someone stuck it in their bike spokes, they would come pretty close.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by egri

I'm sure if someone stuck it in their bike spokes, they would come pretty close.

That would be one expensive bike

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Too bad you can't un-restore a card.

Most professional restorations are reversible.

[FrankWakefield]

As a teenager (which for me was about a two decade process), if I bought something at a Saturday auction (I'm talking live in person auctions, pre eBay, and not talking baseball card auctions), Dad would see whatever it was and ask me what I'd paid for it, then he'd say "Well, when you buy something at an auction you can know one thing, that you paid more for something than anyone else there thought it was worth." But he'd been a child from the Depression.

We've become a nation of haters. And I see that in myself. I'm not very keen on the slabbing/grading of cards. But with this Wagner card I can see that it would be better preserved inside the plastic. I'm amused by what I see as the ardent fans of graded cards having their faith shaken by an altered card inside the slab.

Come on now... the card is a genuine Wagner. It looks better after it was worked on. It's in graded plastic. Who of us would not welcome that card into their collection? And are there any of us who, if we were given that card, we'd then burn it?

I like it.

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by steve B

Most professional restorations are reversible.

This.

Many years ago there was a restored Wagner for sale in Mastros; the restoration was later "reversed", although PSA still re-slabbed it as "authentic, altered".

Here's an image post-restoration reversal...

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

The distinction between this practice and shill bidding strikes me as negligible. I thought AH's prohibited consignors from bidding on their own items. How is the AH doing it for them any different?

I agree with this point. Regardless whether the AH is the party entering the bogus bid, the objective is the same -- to induce the bidder to believe a bid reflects genuine market interest from a "real" bidder. The only distinction between this practice and "regular" shill bidding is that this practice is forewarned in the auction rules as allowed to take place. As I stated in my original post (which for some strange reason -- senior moment? -- refers to AHs as HAs), I regard this distinction to be unconvincing.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

It is my feeling that an item should always sell for one bid more than the second most interested party is willing to pay. I find anything that interferes with that anathema to the auction process.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

It is my feeling that an item should always sell for one bid more than the second most interested party is willing to pay. I find anything that interferes with that anathema to the auction process.

This to me is the classic definition of market value, and I wholeheartedly agree that a realized price reflecting only one bid above a house bid or reserve price is not indicative of true market value. When the realized hammer price is the stated reserve (i.e., the item actually sells), at least in that instance the market has been put on notice what has taken place. That stands in contrast to a bid above a hidden reserve, which, even though stated in the rules as allowed to take place, is more deceptive.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

This to me is the classic definition of market value, and I wholeheartedly agree that a realized price reflecting only one bid above a house bid or reserve price is not indicative of true market value. When the realized hammer price is the stated reserve (i.e., the item actually sells), at least in that instance the market has been put on notice what has taken place. That stands in contrast to a bid above a hidden reserve, which, even though stated in the rules as allowed to take place, is more deceptive.

The price that an item sells for in a given auction on a given day is simply that - the price it sells/sold for in that auction. The assumption that this translates to "fair market value" completely ignores the gross inefficiencies in the market place! For it to be a true "fair market value" we would need to be certain that all willing sellers were meeting all willing buyers in the marketplace to properly see supply and demand at work. Our marketplace is not close to efficient. Add to that the fact that all 8's are not created equal and we have a huge mess. That said, I do think there is value in using a selling price be it auction or private (all of which sales are excluded from the publicly available information) as a relevant piece of information in helping to estimate a fair market value. The more data points you have will help get you closer to a more accurate "fair market value"

Onto reserves - as a result of the very same inefficiencies discussed above, auction houses who have a fiduciary duty to their consignors (NOT their bidders) sometimes agree to place reserves on items. Reserves are a double edged sword - bidders frequently shy away from items they see reserves on and don't bid on items they might actually have won if they did - so some houses choose to "hide" them. Consignors of certain items understandably are concerned that their item may not be seen by all potentially interested buyers of an item and sell below "fair market value" so request reserves. I don't see a simple solution where everyone is happy. I do agree it is poor practice for an auction house to be placing bids against legit bidders up to a hidden reserve price.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I agree with this point. Regardless whether the AH is the party entering the bogus bid, the objective is the same -- to induce the bidder to believe a bid reflects genuine market interest from a "real" bidder. The only distinction between this practice and "regular" shill bidding is that this practice is forewarned in the auction rules
as allowed to take place. As I stated in my original post (which for some strange reason -- senior moment? -- refers to AHs as HAs), I regard this distinction to be unconvincing.

Disagree. By this logic starting any card with an opening bid of more than .01 is shill bidding. There is very little difference between starting a card with a high opening bid and having a reserve. I have seen cards get no bids or one bid in auctions. I prefer the reserve being posted at sometime before the auction and not remain hidden.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by rats60

Disagree. By this logic starting any card with an opening bid of more than .01 is shill bidding. There is very little difference between starting a card with a high opening bid and having a reserve. I have seen cards get no bids or one bid in auctions. I prefer the reserve being posted at sometime before the auction and not remain hidden.

If pursuant to the auction rules the house is allowed to open the bidding (which is not the case with some AHs), then in that instance (i.e., an opening bid placed to give the impression of actual market interest at that level when in fact there is none), then yes, I would refer to that as a shill bid.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by rats60

Disagree. By this logic starting any card with an opening bid of more than .01 is shill bidding. There is very little difference between starting a card with a high opening bid and having a reserve. I have seen cards get no bids or one bid in auctions. I prefer the reserve being posted at sometime before the auction and not remain hidden.

I have to disagree with the logic here. Neither a high starting bid nor a reserve is the problem. It's the appearance of market interest in a card that is created by "bids" that aren't by someone intending to purchase. A high starting bid or a public reserve doesn't create that false impression.

That being said I don't believe in high starting bids or reserves either, but I have no problem chalking that up to personal taste and don't see anything wrong with either practice

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by rats60

Disagree. By this logic starting any card with an opening bid of more than .01 is shill bidding. There is very little difference between starting a card with a high opening bid and having a reserve. I have seen cards get no bids or one bid in auctions. I prefer the reserve being posted at sometime before the auction and not remain hidden.

Reserves should be posted and represent the starting point for bids. All subsequent bids should be by potential buyers prepared to pay that amount plus the vig. Any other method could only be for the purpose of creating false impressions among buyers: either that they could win the item with a bid less than a secret reserve, or in the instance at hand, that bids are coming from real collectors but are actually the AH bumping the bidding up toward said reserve. When secrets are only kept from the buyers, that strikes me as shady business. Just my opinion.

[Hankphenom]

And I would MUCH rather own the unrestored version of this card, not even a close call, IMO. Considering the rarity and iconic status in the hobby, it looks fine, in fact it's a compliment to its appeal that it survived 100+ years in that condition without being tossed away at some point.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I agree with this point. Regardless whether the AH is the party entering the bogus bid, the objective is the same -- to induce the bidder to believe a bid reflects genuine market interest from a "real" bidder. The only distinction between this practice and "regular" shill bidding is that this practice is forewarned in the auction rules as allowed to take place. As I stated in my original post (which for some strange reason -- senior moment? -- refers to AHs as HAs), I regard this distinction to be unconvincing.

Why don't the AHs just indicate there's a frigging RESERVE on the lot and either tell what it is or at least indicate when the reserve price is met.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Fred

Why don't the AHs just indicate there's a frigging RESERVE on the lot and either tell what it is or at least indicate when the reserve price is met.

AHs do a number of things they obviously believe help them and their consignors--what are the bidders, anyway, chopped liver? You know, the ones that actually pay the bills!--that are of dubious effectiveness, not to mention integrity, in my mind. I've always thought that their ridiculously low estimates, intended to spur more interest among bidders, might actually do the reverse, making some feel stupid to be making bids too far ahead of the estimates by the supposed pros, the AHs. Just play it straight across the board, don't try to overthink the process, and let the cards play as they lay--what a unique approach that would be! Out of curiosity, are there any AHs that do that?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

AHs do a number of things they obviously believe help them and their consignors--what are the bidders, anyway, chopped liver? You know, the ones that actually pay the bills!--that are of dubious effectiveness, not to mention integrity, in my mind. I've always thought that their ridiculously low estimates, intended to spur more interest among bidders, might actually do the reverse, making some feel stupid to be making bids too far ahead of the estimates by the supposed pros, the AHs. Just play it straight across the board, don't try to overthink the process, and let the cards play as they lay--what a unique approach that would be! Out of curiosity, are there any AHs that do that?

I've been trying not to make threads like this about me, but you asked

We run auctions with low starting bids and no reserves, hidden, stated or otherwise. We don't even do pre-auction estimates because you, the bidders, tell me what the item is worth, not the other way around. Our name is The Collector Connection because it is our goal to get cards into the hands of collectors. If we make our bidders happy they will in turn make our consignors happy. That's our philosophy.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Fred

Why don't the AHs just indicate there's a frigging RESERVE on the lot and either tell what it is or at least indicate when the reserve price is met.

Unfortunately every auction house does what they think is best for their client base.

I know that both Heritage Auctions and SCP both say there is a reserve and when it is met
Heritage does it a few days prior that a Reserve was met or not met
SCP upfront post that there is a Reserve and when it is met it lets you know.

I thought there was another 1 or 2 but I am drawing a blank

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Unfortunately every auction house does what they think is best for their client base.

I know that both Heritage Auctions and SCP both say there is a reserve and when it is met
Heritage does it a few days prior that a Reserve was met or not met
SCP upfront post that there is a Reserve and when it is met it lets you know.

I thought there was another 1 or 2 but I am drawing a blank

Mile High high does also. I personally do not have a problem with it as long as they disclose it. Here is the text from the MHCC website:

d) Minimum Bids- Each and every lot within the auction does have a minimum bid designated in both the catalog as well as online. A very few of the lots in the auction have a reserve price (please note the vast majority of the lots within the auction do not have a reserve price) A reserve price is the confidential minimum price that a consignor will accept before they will sell the material, this means that a bid of equal or greater than the confidential reserve must be placed for a successful bid to be accepted on that lot. MHCC may implement this reserve by bidding on behalf of the consignor and may place a bid up to the amount of the reserve, by placing successive bids if necessary. In the limited instances where MHCC has a financial interest in a lot beyond our commission, we may place a bid to protect our financial interest. Reserves when in place will be pre-determined and set within the auction software prior to the start of the auction. Again, please note the vast majority of the lots in every auction will be offered without a confidential reserve in place. For all items in the auction (unless an item is withdrawn during the auction)without a reserve, they will be sold to the highest bidder at or above the minimum bid.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

The distinction between this practice and shill bidding strikes me as negligible. I thought AH's prohibited consignors from bidding on their own items. How is the AH doing it for them any different?

It's effectively the same thing.