Shoeless Joe Jackson Auto- Fake?

[Jobu]

Kids are not a good example to compare to adults on this one - the bones in their hands/wrists and their brains are not fully formed.

Jackson wrote numbers and kept notebooks:

https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/l...ok-page/?cat=0

https://www.gottahaverockandroll.com...-LOT38717.aspx

So he clearly had the ability to hold a pen. I also imagine he drew pictures or made doodles at some point in his life, even if only as a kid.

This is all getting away from the point of this thread. And I still say that this makes a lot more sense as a legit signature than it does as a fake given the provenance, the other photos, and the period published newspaper piece that has hand-signed photos in it, not facsimile signatures.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The penmanship in that notebook which includes many words as well as numbers looks pretty damn good. I don't know what to make of it.

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The penmanship in that notebook which includes many words as well as numbers looks pretty damn good. I don't know what to make of it.

I’d bet my whole collection the writing in the notebook isn’t his. I’m also in the “no chance” camp on the 1911 photo and tend to think all the autographs on all the photos in the “barn find” are fakes.

But the beauty of our Hobby is that other folks out there absolutely prize what I deem worthless and probably vice versa.

Jason Schwartz

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Kids are not a good example to compare to adults on this one - the bones in their hands/wrists and their brains are not fully formed.

Jackson wrote numbers and kept notebooks:

https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/l...ok-page/?cat=0

https://www.gottahaverockandroll.com...-LOT38717.aspx

So he clearly had the ability to hold a pen. I also imagine he drew pictures or made doodles at some point in his life, even if only as a kid.

This is all getting away from the point of this thread. And I still say that this makes a lot more sense as a legit signature than it does as a fake given the provenance, the other photos, and the period published newspaper piece that has hand-signed photos in it, not facsimile signatures.

Notice that the bottom one had no bids and didn't sell, and that was less than two months before the photo sold for $1.4 million. The top one sold for $763 in August of last year. I'm guessing that despite the Beckett COA, there was serious doubt about the authenticity. If he could actually write all those things, that would change the entire discussion about his ability to sign his name.

But the one thing I'd like to know is, if the new owner of the photo decides to do an analysis that shows the ink has been on the photo since 1911, if Joe didn't sign it, who did? It looks nothing like the way his wife signed his name, and if the photographer or someone else signed it what exemplar did they use?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SteveS

Notice that the bottom one had no bids and didn't sell, and that was less than two months before the photo sold for $1.4 million. The top one sold for $763 in August of last year. I'm guessing that despite the Beckett COA, there was serious doubt about the authenticity. If he could actually write all those things, that would change the entire discussion about his ability to sign his name.

But the one thing I'd like to know is, if the new owner of the photo decides to do an analysis that shows the ink has been on the photo since 1911, if Joe didn't sign it, who did? It looks nothing like the way his wife signed his name, and if the photographer or someone else signed it what exemplar did they use?

Smith could have obtained an exemplar not too much later (I haven't entirely followed the story of the 1912 but isn't there one from the Cleveland Dealer) and added it to the photo for completeness. The dating wouldn't be precise to 1911 I can't imagine.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by SteveS

Notice that the bottom one had no bids and didn't sell, and that was less than two months before the photo sold for $1.4 million. The top one sold for $763 in August of last year. I'm guessing that despite the Beckett COA, there was serious doubt about the authenticity.

Sorry but its asinine to compare a price between a torn notebook page with numbers, to a signed type one photo.

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Sorry but its asinine to compare a price between a torn notebook page with numbers, to a signed type one photo.

Should be "it's" asinine, not "its." And it's not just numbers, but also written names. Given the rarity of anything written by Jackson, one would absolutely think that a legitimate item with numbers and names would sell for more than $763 and $0. Certainly not $1.4 million, but if the writing is indeed authentic it would rewrite history with regard to the extent of his illiteracy.

[Jobu]

It should be noted that, for the notebook, I don't see anyone claiming that Jackson wrote everything in it. I think this was a Mastronet item way back in the day-- I am sure there is more history that goes with it than the short auction descriptions I could find. I just remembered it and thought I should post to show he could hold a pen to write numbers. I seem to recall another page from it where there was a shaky "Joe" written next to some of the numbers that was attributed to Jackson, so some of the other writing in there could have been his wife, customers, etc. Not sure - shared because hopefully someone will be able to share more.

[canjond]

In terms of another authenticated JJ autograph, wasn't there a scrap piece of paper that had 3 Joe Jackson signatures on it - a progression of attempts to sig his name - that was cut up and sold? I don't recall the origins of that, but I recall all 3 being authenticated by PSA. I'm only asking as another comparison piece.

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by canjond

In terms of another authenticated JJ autograph, wasn't there a scrap piece of paper that had 3 Joe Jackson signatures on it - a progression of attempts to sig his name - that was cut up and sold? I don't recall the origins of that, but I recall all 3 being authenticated by PSA. I'm only asking as another comparison piece.

Yes this was in I believe one of his Liquor Store little flip notepad/book. This and same kind of thing with an alleged envelope where he practiced signing his name on the back I think none of them were full "Joe Jackson" signatures but all were "Joe". All of them were from later in life

If I recall correctly the notebook had family providence and that was very likely his scribbling...not sure on the envelope. Again just going off memory right now but I think the envelope had two attempts on the back and was bought and cut up by a card company and special cut signature cards made of them, one is a duel cut of "Jo" and "Pete" Rose (attached).

---as for debating the 1911 photo--- Folks here seem strong leaning one way or the other, I can make a good case it is not his signature and believe there are more red flags than green flags...but others have made a few good green flag points (Jobu for one) and I really feel one or two people are just wanting to troll and argue here much like in other "controversial" topic threads (I skip past their posts honestly). Some very respected collectors have expressed it is fake both publicly and privately and that only strengthens my thought it is fake. In the end only one person knows and he died a long time ago. Im happy to express my thoughts if anyone is interest in messages but I just feel like this post is beating a dead horse or two now