Shoeless Joe Jackson Auto- Fake?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think you guys are giving way too much weight to the fact that he was illiterate. How difficult could it possibly be for an illiterate person to learn how to write their name? It's not like he needs to learn how to read and write. He just needs to learn his name. I'm not buying this idea that he was borderline incapable of signing it. I also don't buy the idea that he never signed baseballs for anyone either. I bet several of the balls in circulation were signed by him but just never get authenticated because it can't be proven.

I cannot read, write, or understand the Chinese or Japanese languages, but I guarantee I could learn how to write my name in both Kanji and Hanzi in about 5 minutes, and everyone in this thread probably could as well.

You are saying this from the perspective of a literate person. You writing anything at all in any language as a literate person cannot be compared to an illiterate person doing anything.

Here's how you can test your theory. Sit down with a 3 year old and show them how to write Kanji. See if it takes 5 minutes. Report back on how it looks.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by packs

Here's how you can test your theory. Sit down with a 3 year old and show them how to write Kanji. See if it takes 5 minutes. Report back on how it looks.

I see this process daily. I have a 3-year-old. She is currently learning how to write. I assure you, with 3 years of practice, she'll have no problem writing her name. But you shouldn't conflate the illiteracy of a fully grown adult with the illiteracy of a 3-year-old child. They do not face the same obstacles. An adult could learn how to write their name much faster than a toddler could (...grabbing my shield now, as the arrows telling me how ignorant I am for making such a claim come flying in...)

[packs]

Where does that idea come from? An illiterate person has no understanding of the written word. There is a lesser understanding than no understanding?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by packs

You are saying this from the perspective of a literate person. You writing anything at all in any language as a literate person cannot be compared to an illiterate person doing anything.

Here's how you can test your theory. Sit down with a 3 year old and show them how to write Kanji. See if it takes 5 minutes. Report back on how it looks.

I think this is a poor comparison. The fine motor movement skills of a small child versus an adult are vastly different regardless of literacy.

[packs]

Are they? We're talking about someone who would have no experience with a pencil. I've got pretty good motor skills and am literate. I don't think I'd do well at caligraphy. All you have to do is try writing with your weak hand. I think you'll find out pretty quickly how handy muscle memory and practice are.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Just because someone is incapable of writing doesn't mean they haven't had experience holding a pencil in order to draw things. Children do learn to use writing implements prior to learning how to read or print their names. And again, Jackson was an adult, so would have had ample opportunity to find other uses for a pen or pencil.

[packs]

Like what? Are you suggesting he might have been an artist or something?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Not at all. Just think of various utilitarian ways a pen or pencil can be used other than to write in a language. An illiterate adult would have had many reasons to make marks throughout their life--the point being that the motor movements would have been much more developed in a fully grown individual as a result. Remember, even if the writing implement wasn't held in the 100% proper way, a person is likely using the very same muscles and motor movements whether writing, drawing or making a mark on a 2X4. A pre-schooler's pen, pencil or paintbrush marks are generally fraught with more trepidation. While Jackson's autograph does exhibit slowness and hesitancy, try getting your three year old to write "Joe Jackson" anywhere near as nice. If your child is gifted, they'd likely be more literate than poor Joe, too, but they still couldn't do as good a job. Case closed.

[Snowman]

Some of you guys make it sound like he was practically a vegetable, or that he was the equivalent of a recent amputee learning to write with their toes for the first time. We're talking about a fully capable adult here, with finely tuned motor skills, learning to copy a few letters. That's it. It's really not that difficult. We're not talking about him learning to read and write, we're not talking about him being able to generate a beautifully scripted signature like Babe Ruth's or anything like that. We're simply talking about someone learning how to copy a few letters.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

I think this is a poor comparison. The fine motor movement skills of a small child versus an adult are vastly different regardless of literacy.

And those vary a lot between individuals.

I was way ahead on fine motor skills, way behind on large motor skills.
I could handle building some pretty detailed models before I was 6, 1/72 biplanes. but struck out in kickball - regularly.... Like who does that?? Apparently me.

Large motor skills didn't get to even as much as average until maybe 8th grade.

[packs]

I don't think writing is a motor skill issue. It's muscle memory and repetition. I gave the example before of trying to write with your weak hand. My motor skills are highly developed over the course of my life. I still can't write with my weak hand because I don't have the muscle memory or repetition to do it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think writing is a motor skill issue. It's muscle memory and repetition. I gave the example before of trying to write with your weak hand. My motor skills are highly developed over the course of my life. I still can't write with my weak hand because I don't have the muscle memory or repetition to do it.

It's interesting, is it not, that from playing baseball those of us who are right handed probably catch much better with our left, even though we couldn't use it well to write our name or shoot a basketball.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think writing is a motor skill issue. It's muscle memory and repetition. I gave the example before of trying to write with your weak hand. My motor skills are highly developed over the course of my life. I still can't write with my weak hand because I don't have the muscle memory or repetition to do it.

I can write with either, but only rarely write with my weak hand.
Writing is considered part of fine motor skills*. Writing well is muscle memory and repetition.
But both grandfathers were tool and die makers, and I know for sure one was ambidextrous.
For a brief time, maybe a week I was trying to train myself to do some of Davincis tricks - mirror writing, writing something with the left hand of the page left handed and the right side right handed, writing two different things at the same time.... Totally impossible except for the mirror writing.

*It's sort of a part of one of the childhood developmental "tests" the doctors give. They have the kid copy a plus sign and circle. It tests fine motor, visual perception and eye/hand coordination all at once. Anything close to a + is a pass, as is any closed figure, even if it's not all that round.