So do you think Kershaw retires?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Not like Pedro was a dominant force in the Playoffs either.

One Red Sox manager once got fired for leaving Pedro in a game for too long. Which kind of boggled my mind at the time, considering Pedro was supposed to be the best pitcher on the planet.

Both have an excellent lifetime WHIP in the Playoffs, suggesting they tended to be the victim of some bad luck on batted balls, and neither were the horse to close out games that they started. At least not by the time that time of the year rolled around.

Clayton tended to be good for most of the games he pitched, which is probably why his WHIP isn't all that bad, but he just got shelled in big innings time after time which is why his ERA is just miserable.

The 2003 playoff game was terrible managing, Pedro had nothing left and everyone knew it except Pedro and Grady Little. Pedro intimidated him into leaving him in. Francona would have ignored him.

[packs]

It's not that I think Kershaw wasn't as good as he was, I just don't put him in the same conversation as the elite guys. He didn't pitch enough to be one.

I don't say this to take anything away from Kershaw but I see him in the same class as Johan Santana, who I think was well on his way to being a HOFer too. But he pitched even less than Kershaw did. Although in that time Santana did win 2 CY and also won a Triple Crown. Kershaw was clearly better but the accolades aren't too far away from each other.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

It's not that I think Kershaw wasn't as good as he was, I just don't put him in the same conversation as the elite guys. He didn't pitch enough to be one.

I don't say this to take anything away from Kershaw but I see him in the same class as Johan Santana, who I think was well on his way to being a HOFer too. But he pitched even less than Kershaw did. Although in that time Santana did win 2 CY and also won a Triple Crown. Kershaw was clearly better but the accolades aren't too far away from each other.

Where do you rate Koufax?

[packs]

Pretty high talent wise but not as high career wise. I wouldn’t say he was an elite HOFer either. Elite talent for sure.

[soxinseven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clayton tended to be good for most of the games he pitched, which is probably why his WHIP isn't all that bad, but he just got shelled in big innings time after time which is why his ERA is just miserable.

The 2003 playoff game was terrible managing, Pedro had nothing left and everyone knew it except Pedro and Grady Little. Pedro intimidated him into leaving him in. Francona would have ignored him.

Although I think we should have gone to the bullpen, saying he had nothing left in the tank isn't exactly true. Pedro's last pitch was 95 mph and broke Posada's bat. The ball landed about 35 feet on the outfield grass.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by soxinseven

Although I think we should have gone to the bullpen, saying he had nothing left in the tank isn't exactly true. Pedro's last pitch was 95 mph and broke Posada's bat. The ball landed about 35 feet on the outfield grass.

He had given up three straight hits, no?

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He had given up three straight hits, no?

I remember yelling at my TV when he even came out for that inning. If I recall correctly, he gave up some VERY loud outs the inning before.

What a Hall of Fame starting pitcher is will evolve with the game. I actually think Santana will get in some day via one of the era committees, when people figure out that another 300 game winner is going to be a long wait.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

I remember yelling at my TV when he even came out for that inning. If I recall correctly, he gave up some VERY loud outs the inning before.

What a Hall of Fame starting pitcher is will evolve with the game. I actually think Santana will get in some day via one of the era committees, when people figure out that another 300 game winner is going to be a long wait.

The prior inning he had walked off the mound and made his characteristic gesture to the sky, thinking he was done for the night.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Right up there with Babe Ruth, Bucky Dent, and Bill Buckner.

[soxinseven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He had given up three straight hits, no?

Absolutely. No need to build a case here Pete. I feel they should have turned it over to the bullpen. That being said, doesn’t change the fact that a broken bat flare tied the game.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by soxinseven

Absolutely. No need to build a case here Pete. I feel they should have turned it over to the bullpen. That being said, doesn’t change the fact that a broken bat flare tied the game.

True that. It was the Curse.

[Mike D.]

Can we go back to talking about Kershaw? This conversation is spooking me a few hours before Yanks/Sox wildcard game.