Knickerbocker Photo (Update)

[smokelessjoe]

Steve,

I am hoping that you have asked these experts (as you have asked others in this thread) to provide information / facts as to how they came to their conclusions. As you know, simply stating this photo is from the "mid-late 1850s" simply does not carry any merit.

Also, I hope you have taken the time to note the similarities amongst the men themselves in the photo.

Perhaps this is a FATHER / SON photograph.

[slightlyrounded]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Perhaps this is a FATHER / SON photograph.

Great point. The hand on the shoulder struck me as odd without that context.

[SteveS]

smokeless Joe, I believe I mentioned above some of the information they provided to back up the date. The part I found most interesting is the overlapping. A couple also mentioned the clothing and grooming styles.

slightlyrounded, as for father/son, I really don't see a familial resemblance here. If you think the guys with the hand on the shoulder are father and son, you should probably look closer. Besides, it's not uncommon to see a hand on a shoulder. This one is from the 1859 Knickerbocker team photo. And please understand that I know that I need to do more to prove the IDs. But the date was a huge hangup for a few people here, and I think we should move beyond that.

[slightlyrounded]

Originally Posted by SteveS

slightlyrounded, as for father/son, I really don't see a familial resemblance here. If you think the guys with the hand on the shoulder are father and son, you should probably look closer. Besides, it's not uncommon to see a hand on a shoulder. This one is from the 1859 Knickerbocker team photo. And please understand that I know that I need to do more to prove the IDs. But the date was a huge hangup for a few people here, and I think we should move beyond that.

I think there's a distinction between leaning on someone in a line photo and making a purposeful connection to someone more formally seated in front of you.

[SteveS]

slightlyrounded, here are the Brooklyn Bridegrooms. Three of the men have their hands on the man in front of them (two of them have both hands!). I doubt there were any fathers/sons on that team. There are plenty of examples of this you can find by googling pictures of baseball teams.

bnorth, here are my Avery and Adams side-by-side. I cannot see a 20-30 year age difference or a close resemblance. But I do agree that different people can see different things. That's why I utilized the facial-match programs, which take the human element out of it.

[SteveS]

Snowman, you posted while I was writing my previous post. In my follow-up with two of the experts, that's when I mentioned my Knickerbocker belief and that it was dismissed by a few people on this forum because of their staunch belief that it's an 1870s photo. They were very, very adamant that it is not, and is much earlier than that.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by SteveS

slightlyrounded, here are the Brooklyn Bridegrooms. Three of the men have their hands on the man in front of them (two of them have both hands!). I doubt there were any fathers/sons on that team. There are plenty of examples of this you can find by googling pictures of baseball teams.

bnorth, here are my Avery and Adams side-by-side. I cannot see a 20-30 year age difference or a close resemblance. But I do agree that different people can see different things. That's why I utilized the facial-match programs, which take the human element out of it.

To me they look quite similar(father/son) and easily have a 20 year age difference.

That is weird because the people you matched with the computer programs look nothing alike to me.

Either way I have enjoyed this thread and wish you the best on finding out who they really are.

[SteveS]

smokelessjoe:

1. I did not ask specifically for any reasons. I sent my scans of the front and back of the stereoview and asked if they would be able to date it.

2. Yes, they did provide some of their reasoning.

3. To summarize, the clothing and grooming styles. The mounting design. The overlap on the left side indicates that it's from a very early stereoview camera. Now, I should point out that the people here who say that it's from the 1870s gave no reason other than, "I've been doing this for a long time and I say so."

4. Assuming you're serious, that's an emphatic yes. I looked, but I don't see any familial resemblances among these men.

5. No.

6. I posted those results above shortly after Snowman requested them. EDIT: I just reread what you requested; I misunderstood the first time, and will post those results as quickly as I can get it done....

bnorth, thank you! I appreciate your input.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Steve,

I am hoping that you have asked these experts (as you have asked others in this thread) to provide information / facts as to how they came to their conclusions. As you know, simply stating this photo is from the "mid-late 1850s" simply does not carry any merit.

Also, I hope you have taken the time to note the similarities amongst the men themselves in the photo.

Perhaps this is a FATHER / SON photograph.

Great observation. Fathers in front row and sons in the back. To me that looks way more realistic as they do resemble each other and age would also seem correct.

[SteveS]

bnorth, two of the three men in the back row are the ones who people earlier in the thread thought looked the oldest.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by SteveS

bnorth, two of the three men in the back row are the ones who people earlier in the thread thought looked the oldest.

I just went back and looked again and to me the back row look to be 20-30 years younger than the person sitting directly in front of them. They also resemble each other way more to me than the side by sides you posted.

Just shows how different people see the same thing and see something different.

[smokelessjoe]

Steve,

I think you may have accidently dodged my "round-about" questions. let me be more clear.

1. Did you specifically ask all three experts to provide you with information as to how they came to their conclusions?

2. Did the three experts provide you with any information as to how they came to their conclusions?

3. If so, can you share that information with us so we can learn from them?

4. Have you looked at the similarities amongst the men themselves in the photo?

5. Have you run the google / facial recognition program only using the men in the photo?

6. If so, can you share the results with us? If not, can you run the program using only them?

Hoping you can answer these questions and others to come so we can solve this mystery.

[GaryPassamonte]

It was very common for players to have their hands/arms etc on other players in early baseball photography. In this cdv I once owned, at least half the players are touching another player. I would guess it was a fraternal practice.