Knickerbocker Photo (Update)

[Directly]

If the photo was examined by 100 experts, 25 would say without a doubt its right--25 would say no way, 25 would be inconclusive, 25 would say it may be, it may not.-- the burden of proof is up to the owner to convince all 100 experts its right---good luck in your quest.

[SteveS]

Snowman, I did notice Curry's hair. When I blow up his photo from the stereoview, there's a smudge/blur that goes across his forehead that obscures a bit of the hairline; the outdoor lighting also contributes to that. But he has those very prominent eye bags, as well as a distinctive nose and open mouth which have me convinced.
Directly, you summed up where I stand pretty perfectly.

[jpop43]

In the immortal words of Agent Fox Mulder of TV’s ‘the X-Files’, “I want to believe”. The discovery of a legitimate, thoroughly researched, peer reviewed image of 6 members of the Knickerbocker BBC would be beyond historically significant. Not to mention how valuable and desirable it would be to the collecting community.

My opinion is by no means as expert as those who’ve already weighed in on the history of photography/stereoviews, but I did want to add some context to this discussion by simply pointing out the birthdates and ages of those allegedly reflected on the image.

This would just be another tool to help assess what we are looking at and whether these men are likely to be Knickerbockers.

Here are the birth years of those allegedly pictured…

Walter Avery, b. Jan. 1814
D.L. Adams b. Nov. 1814
Duncan Curry b. Nov. 1812
Charles DeBost b. Aug. 1826
Fraley Niebuhr b. Nov. 1820
Charles Birney b. approx. 1811

Based upon discussion thus far, lets…for arguments sake…use the date of 1857 for the stereoview image. If it was taken in 1857…verifiably early (but apparently possible) for such an image type…here’s how old those men would have been at the time the photo was taken…

Avery, 43 years of age
Adams, 43 years of age
Curry, 45 years of age
DeBost, 31 years of age
Niebuhr, 37 years of age
Birney, 46 years of age

To me, several of the subjects appear much younger than this, while others seem older…just not the ones you’d think.

Now, as the OP points out, there is a possibility that the image was made from an earlier one. If that was the case, the original image would have been a daguerreotype (pre-1857 in this case as that's the approx date of the stereoview). Again, for the sake of discussion, let’s try and see this angle thru…

If an original image of this group was, in fact, used as the basis of the stereoview, we would simply subtract years off of each of the individuals back to the round-about date of that original photo, thus dating it.

I suppose we have to ask ourselves how early this image could possibly have been taken given the appearances of the subjects. Some appear to be quite young in the stereoview…lets say in their 30’s (i.e. the alleged Avery, Adams, Birney, and Niebuhr subjects). If that’s the case, the image would have to have been taken around 1845-1850 (based on their known birthdates).

Two of the subjects…those said to be Curry and DeBost…appear quite a bit older than the other subjects depicted on the stereoview. Yet, both men would have been right around the same age or younger than the other subjects if they were indeed the KBBC. In fact, DeBost would be the youngest of the group by 6 years…its curious that the subject id’d as DeBost looks to be the most senior (WAY older looking than the boyish subject id’d as Niebuhr who would have been 6 years his elder).

Last observation…and I’m not a photography expert…but I’m not sure if such an image (very crisp, multiple subjects, posed outdoors) was possible in the 1840s-1850s given the exceedingly long exposure times. If the stereoview was made from an earlier image and re-printed in 1857-1859, how much earlier could that image have dated? And, how would it jive with the known ages/appearances of the alleged subjects at various points in time.

Like I said to start my post, I am so very much hoping that this image somehow turns out to be members of the KBBC…it would be great for the history and the hobby. Again, I am no expert…on anything really…but I did want to just add some of this info with the hope that it informs the dialogue as it moves forward.

Crossing my fingers for SteveS and the potential for something special.

Best,
Jonathan
www.dugouttreasures.com