Knickerbocker Photo (Update)

[mrreality68]

Very interesting picture and fantastic research

Thanks for sharing

[vthobby]

Amazing detective work. I'll now have to update my future Ebay searches with "Learned Gents" lol

Awesome Really!

Thanks for sharing!

Mike

[oldjudge]

Sterioviews basically began in 1860. That makes the image from 1860 or later. The person at top left looks young in the picture taken in 1860 or later. How could he have played for the Knickerbockers? I’m not drinking the Kool-Aid.

[SteveS]

mrreality68 and vtgmsc, thank you! oldjudge, from my research I found that stereoviews began to take hold around 1857. The earliest ones were white or cream-colored with squared corners, which fits the description of this one. Also, Henry Anthony, who played for the Knickerbockers, owned with his brother Edward one of the most prominent photo businesses in the country, and they were way ahead of the curve when it came to the latest photographic developments. It's also possible that a previously-taken photo was made into the stereoview by taking a picture of that picture or using the negative process of that era.

[prewarsports]

I couple of things I will point out. I have been doing photography for a very long time and could write paragraphs about stereoview photography and it's evolution but suffice it to say you have a c. 1870 stereoview on your hands with it actually in my opinion most likely dating to about 1872-75. The other thing that is not really supportive of the evidence is the age range of the men in the image, while individually some of the identifications look pretty good, some are a bit off from a cursory look. The fact that some of the men in the photo appear to be quite young (maybe 30 years old) while others appear to be much older (perhaps in their 60's) combined with the vintage of the photo would be problematic for your assessment as a Knickerbocker image when coupled with the early 1870's date. Just my two cents.

[SteveS]

prewarsports, thank you for your opinions, which are appreciated and definitely worth more than two cents. It's my understanding that stereoviews from the 1860s-1870s are on colored cards with rounded corners, and usually have the photographer's/distributor's information on them. The earlier ones are white or cream-colored with squared corners and no info. As for the ages of the men, after sharpening the image and looking at each one very closely in comparison with the known photos, every facial feature is a very close match. At first I thought that the man I identify as De Bost was much older and someone else wearing glasses. But a close look shows that he is not wearing glasses and appears to be older because his eyes are mostly shut and the blur of the stereoview makes it appear that he has bags under his eyes. For what it's worth, I ran them all through two different facial-match programs and all the results showed very high positive match rates of 84%-97%. As I say, I am not sure whether the photo is an earlier one that was used to make a stereoview. In any event, thanks again, and happy collecting!

[vthobby]

Steve,

I have no idea if your item is what you say it is but kudos for you man.

Love your passion and your rebuttals. No ill will amongst anyone but way to keep it clean and to do your research. Stick to your guns!

Love your research and quick responses! Logical and from something that is approx 150 years old. Who knows?

Thanks for sharing this. Really neat to research and think about!

Peace, Mike

[prewarsports]

There is no set colors for years on stereoviews. Many of the earliest ones are on larger cabinet backs and have orange and yellow mounts, these are generally from the 1870's. The earlier ones are actually smaller and have rectangular photo portions, you can find those with valuable Civil War scenes etc. In reality, the Civil War is what really made these popular as they were a novelty until war-scenes became the cool thing to have around the house to show your friends. In general, stereoviews were not widely distributed or used until the 1870's and are rare before then with exception of mass-produced civil war images etc.

[SteveS]

Mike, thank you very much! I appreciate views both pro and con, and that's the reason I posted it here, as you guys are the best and most knowledgeable.
prewarsports, I think the wild card here is the Anthony Brothers. They began their stereoview business in 1857, and had deep ties to the Knickerbockers. I can totally see Edward Anthony, who had traveled to England in 1847 and learned photography from one of its inventors, making a photograph of this team as one of his first stereoviews. Also, I have seen numerous stereoviews that were verified to be from the 1850s and have a style identical to this one (including the photo shape). What I need to do eventually is have the original photo inspected by photo and facial-match experts. Even after that, I assume there will be people who agree or disagree. For me, after spending a lot of time trying to convince myself otherwise, I don't see any way that there can be six guys who look so incredibly like the comparison photos and not be them.