ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by drcy

Making shillers pay for what they win is important and preventative. In fact, in a sense that makes them real bidders. Alas, not all auctioneers make them pay.

+1 Great comment. If shill bidders had to pay for items they win (plus BP of course) then that would make them actual bidders. So maybe the real problem is frequent non-paying winners, plus people who retract their bids often.

The most insidious shill bidders are the ones within or associated with AHs, who either know what other peoples' max bids are, or who have an arrangement with the AH, like the Mastro case. Because in those cases, the shills aren't running the risk of winning and paying; they are therefore not actual bidders.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Mark17

+1 Great comment. If shill bidders had to pay for items they win (plus BP of course) then that would make them actual bidders. So maybe the real problem is frequent non-paying winners, plus people who retract their bids often.

The most insidious shill bidders are the ones within or associated with AHs, who either know what other peoples' max bids are, or who have an arrangement with the AH, like the Mastro case. Because in those cases, the shills aren't running the risk of winning and paying; they are therefore not actual bidders.

agree as well i have said this for years. Just make people pay if they want to keep their cards, you are welcome too, just pay the bid you won and BP..no harm no foul...

[Yoda]

Breaking news, maybe, I think, I found a PWCC auction, now freed from Mother Ebay, on Auction Report. If this is their much ballyhooed rollout of their independent platform, it is pathetic. Old holdouts from the vault and not much else. The other AH's must be laughing.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Breaking news, maybe, I think, I found a PWCC auction, now freed from Mother Ebay, on Auction Report. If this is their much ballyhooed rollout of their independent platform, it is pathetic. Old holdouts from the vault and not much else. The other AH's must be laughing.

I wont even be signing up for the platform, better deals for you guys

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Breaking news, maybe, I think, I found a PWCC auction, now freed from Mother Ebay, on Auction Report. If this is their much ballyhooed rollout of their independent platform, it is pathetic. Old holdouts from the vault and not much else. The other AH's must be laughing.

I think you're on the wrong page? The one I'm seeing looks pretty epic. Over 42,000 cards listed in the auction in total. Everything starting out at $10. ~200 Mickey Mantles, ~1200 Michael Jordan, ~50 Babe Ruth, ~550 Lebron James, ~20 Ty Cobb, ~100 Willie Mays, ... There are a ton of great cards in this auction.

[Johnny630]

I think they’re going have Blowout reported sales on their auction.

[Republicaninmass]

Funny, gone are the days of not having more than one of each card per auction. Must be infinite demand

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Funny, gone are the days of not having more than one of each card per auction. Must be infinite demand

Some days you wonder, don't you, who is consigning all these cards, and who is buying them?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I think they’re going have Blowout reported sales on their auction.

Should keep the BODA crew busy for the foreseeable future at least. I wonder if they're hiring?

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think you're on the wrong page? The one I'm seeing looks pretty epic. Over 42,000 cards listed in the auction in total. Everything starting out at $10. ~200 Mickey Mantles, ~1200 Michael Jordan, ~50 Babe Ruth, ~550 Lebron James, ~20 Ty Cobb, ~100 Willie Mays, ... There are a ton of great cards in this auction.

Travis, many thanks. Must have somehow arrived on their vault release page. Don't ask me how. Could you kindly send me a link so I can at least have a look at these goodies and pricing so far. Thanks, John

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think you're on the wrong page? The one I'm seeing looks pretty epic. Over 42,000 cards listed in the auction in total. Everything starting out at $10. ~200 Mickey Mantles, ~1200 Michael Jordan, ~50 Babe Ruth, ~550 Lebron James, ~20 Ty Cobb, ~100 Willie Mays, ... There are a ton of great cards in this auction.

Does anyone else find this to be stunningly excessive for one auction? There are many copies of a large number of high profile cards, almost impossible not to be with 42,000+ cards up for auction at one time. This looks more like an inventory liquidation to me than a monthly auction.

EDIT to add that I was referring to the 42,000 cards total. The pre-war selection is a tiny fraction of that and doesn't appear to be much more than what we've seen from plenty of other AHs, if even that.

[Republicaninmass]

They'll find buyers for them all and set more records.


Not long ago auctions would refuse more than one copy of a card. I wouldn't want a competing copy of my consignment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

They'll find buyers for them all and set more records.


Not long ago auctions would refuse more than one copy of a card. I wouldn't want a competing copy of my consignment.

PWCC certainly isn't alone in dong this.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by chadeast

Does anyone else find this to be stunningly excessive for one auction? There are many copies of a large number of high profile cards, almost impossible not to be with 42,000+ cards up for auction at one time. This looks more like an inventory liquidation to me than a monthly auction.

EDIT to add that I was referring to the 42,000 cards total. The pre-war selection is a tiny fraction of that and doesn't appear to be much more than what we've seen from plenty of other AHs, if even that.

It doesn't strike me as being that much of an outlier when you compare it to their standard monthly ebay auction volume. I think they did something like 35,000 cards in their final month on eBay. And it's been a couple months since they were booted off the platform, so they likely had a backlog of sales stacking up. If you combine their expected eBay volume for the past 2 months, assuming they were still there, that's probably ~70,000 cards. It seems realistic to me that they could have lost ~28,000 of those ~70,000 sales because of the ebay fallout, owning them with 42,000 cards to sell. I'd be surprised though if they have more than 42,000 next month though. I'd guess it will be closer to 30,000 next month. Although surely it'll depend on how well they do in this one.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It doesn't strike me as being that much of an outlier when you compare it to their standard monthly ebay auction volume. I think they did something like 35,000 cards in their final month on eBay. And it's been a couple months since they were booted off the platform, so they likely had a backlog of sales stacking up. If you combine their expected eBay volume for the past 2 months, assuming they were still there, that's probably ~70,000 cards. It seems realistic to me that they could have lost ~28,000 of those ~70,000 sales because of the ebay fallout, owning them with 42,000 cards to sell. I'd be surprised though if they have more than 42,000 next month though. I'd guess it will be closer to 30,000 next month. Although surely it'll depend on how well they do in this one.

That and whether the postal inspectors and FBI show up to padlock the doors.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It doesn't strike me as being that much of an outlier when you compare it to their standard monthly ebay auction volume. I think they did something like 35,000 cards in their final month on eBay. And it's been a couple months since they were booted off the platform, so they likely had a backlog of sales stacking up. If you combine their expected eBay volume for the past 2 months, assuming they were still there, that's probably ~70,000 cards. It seems realistic to me that they could have lost ~28,000 of those ~70,000 sales because of the ebay fallout, owning them with 42,000 cards to sell. I'd be surprised though if they have more than 42,000 next month though. I'd guess it will be closer to 30,000 next month. Although surely it'll depend on how well they do in this one.

Following up on the number of listings in PWCC's monthly auctions. It looks like they have 23,717 cards listed this month for their November auction. They had about 42,000 in October, which included some amount of backlog after being offline for a couple months. It'll be interesting to see how things trend from here. I think watching the number of cards they get going forward over the next 6 months will be critical to their success or failure as an independent platform. Can they still realize strong prices on their own? They certainly did with some cards, but there were also plenty of bargains to be had as well. Although despite the conspiracy theories, the same was actually true for them on eBay. I've been building a sales history database for vintage basketball cards and you'd be surprised how many of the outlier sales, on the low end, came from PWCC listings.

It's possible that this current month still has some amount of backlog in it. Also, I'm not sure how much seasonal effect there is in the expected monthly volume (what does a "normal" November or December look like for them historically?). I would anticipate their expected volume going forward to continue to be in the low 20,000s though each month. It might dip into the high teens if some of this ~24,000 still has some backlog in it though. But if we see it dip below 15,000, then that will be indicative of PWCC struggling on their new platform, and if we see it back up above 30,000, then that will be a sign that the hobby is latching on to them as a viable alternative to eBay and other consignment options. As a data geek, those are the two magic numbers I'd be watching out for (15,000 and 30,000 listings per month).

Grabbing my popcorn...