ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Because they were shilled? What makes more sense? Someone buys a card and sells it for half a few months later then the second buyer sells it for 20% less. Or the first auction is shilled and never paid for, the second auction is shilled and never paid for and then the third auction results in a sale (or not). The later is what happened in 2016, why wouldn't it be the same in 2021?

The alleged sellers realized even less than that after fees if those sales are real.
Yeah, real likely.
But defenders will defend, that's what they did then, that's what they do now.

Imagine if he gets indicted, what will they say then?

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is the Blowout thread on PWCC cards supposedly not paid for I referenced the other day.

I probably posted it here a long time ago but worth another look in light of the recent ebay claim.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1307889

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is the Blowout thread on PWCC cards supposedly not paid for I referenced the other day.

I probably posted it here a long time ago but worth another look in light of the recent ebay claim.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1307889

This is precisely the sort of analysis that drove me nuts over at the Blowhard forums. Somehow, someone thinks they can "prove" that they've discovered a way to uncover this damning list of manipulated transactions because they found cards on PWCC's research tool but those cards were absent on eBay's. There's a huge problem with this assumption though. eBay's data integrity is absolute garbage to begin with. I deal with data integrity issues every day at work. It's an extremely important aspect of a data scientist's job. Every company has these issues. You can't just assume that what pops up in eBay's market price research tool is comprehensive of anything, and the same with PWCC's tool. You can't look at the intersection of those two datasets and start making conclusions like this about the missing links. There's often no rhyme or reason to which cards get listed as "sold", which ones get removed or flagged, when the ones that do get removed actually get removed, etc. Just go look through your own eBay purchases and try to see which ones you can find through their market research tool and PWCC's research tool. You will find missing sales. It is extremely common.

These sorts of threads are tattooed all over the place at Blowhard. Then the subsequent posts are just an avalanche of praise from people who just gobble this nonsense up. "Oh wow! Great work detective!"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying shill bidding doesn't happen on the regular with PWCC consignors, or that some of these cards weren't paid for. I'm just saying that this list isn't what you think it is. The primary conclusions from that thread are not valid. Also, just because an item wasn't paid for doesn't mean it was because of shill bidding.

Here's a prime example from my own collection. And this is for a 52 Topps Mickey Mantle no less. I bought this card on eBay from PWCC on 07/22/2021 for $45k. But it doesn't show up in eBay's market pricing tool. Yet I assure you, it was paid for and is currently in my possession.

Same with some of my other recent purchases. I bought 3 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan SGC 9 rookie cards, all on eBay from PWCC. But only 2 of the 3 show up. Why is that? Again, all were paid for and all are in my possession.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You know best. I am sure it means nothing. I am sure what DeLorme (who was in the thick of it) told me about what was going on was contrived as well. Just data set errors, nothing to see here. And just a huge fortuity that it coincides with a period when Brent acknowledged a group of people were "pushing" the market and reported prices were surging to unheard of levels. And just a coincidence that the seller is PWCC and not someone else.

Next..... nothing to see here.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You know best. I am sure it means nothing. I am sure what DeLorme told me about what was going on was contrived as well.

There might very well be all sorts of shenanigans going on at PWCC. I'm not defending them. I'm merely pointing out that this list proves nothing. Then, I demonstrated why with an example from my own purchases.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

There might very well be all sorts of shenanigans going on at PWCC. I'm not defending them. I'm merely pointing out that this list proves nothing. Then, I demonstrated why with an example from my own purchases.

The list strongly supports what some know from other sources what was going on. Your semantics are meaningless.

Anyone can look at almost anything and hypothesize another explanation. So what? In context, what's the most likely explanation for all these apparently unsold items? A database error?

Oh and BTW a number of the recurring IDs identified are the same people Brent acknowledged were trying to push the market. Must be an innocuous explanation for that too.

[jad22]

“Everybody knows that the dice are loaded.”

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The list strongly supports what some know from other sources what was going on. Your semantics are meaningless.

You and I approach these sorts of things differently. You seem to be strongly influenced by people you trust. You know so-and-so is a good guy, and he wouldn't lie to you, and he told you x, y, and z are happening over at company ABC, so you know it's true. Then person B, who you also know and trust, knows that this and that are going down over at ABC too, so it builds on the narrative. You get enough of these stories going around, and then you come across a thread like this and it all just fits so well. You see this as evidence. Throw another snowball on the hill. Then another thread pops up about eBay buyer 'a***1' which has to be so-and-so because their masked eBay ID is also 'a***1', PLUS it fits with the narrative, so throw another snowball on the hill. Rinse and repeat enough times and eventually, you cause an avalanche on the hillside. This is textbook confirmation bias.

Meanwhile, someone like me comes along and says, "I don't care at all what your friend said about company ABC. That doesn't mean anything to me. I'm not saying your friend is a liar, I'm merely pointing out that he might just be misinformed or mistaken and that in order for me to believe something is true, I need to see actual evidence of the claim itself. And the holes I've been poking in all this data that keeps getting posted aren't just minor details or semantics. These are major, major issues that render the entire experiments and their conclusions invalid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

There might very well be all sorts of shenanigans going on at PWCC. I'm not defending them. I'm merely pointing out that this list proves nothing. Then, I demonstrated why with an example from my own purchases.

Of course you're defending them. Every piece of evidence against them, you are trying to rebut. Oh, wait, it's just an academic exercise.

[Wite3]

Originally Posted by Snowman

There might very well be all sorts of shenanigans going on at PWCC. I'm not defending them. I'm merely pointing out that this list proves nothing. Then, I demonstrated why with an example from my own purchases.

What if I told you that the data points you provide from your own purchases could have been shilled and you overpaid due to that bidding practice? It sounds like you are trying to prop up your own recent purchases now.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Wite3

What if I told you that the data points you provide from your own purchases could have been shilled and you overpaid due to that bidding practice? It sounds like you are trying to prop up your own recent purchases now.

No! Say it ain't so!


Anyone remember the "sale" of the signed psa 5 Mantle psa reported....long before the run up for 275k? Literally was 10x the last sale and it had to be "noted" somewhere

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is precisely the sort of analysis that drove me nuts over at the Blowhard forums. Somehow, someone thinks they can "prove" that they've discovered a way to uncover this damning list of manipulated transactions because they found cards on PWCC's research tool but those cards were absent on eBay's. There's a huge problem with this assumption though. eBay's data integrity is absolute garbage to begin with. I deal with data integrity issues every day at work. It's an extremely important aspect of a data scientist's job. Every company has these issues. You can't just assume that what pops up in eBay's market price research tool is comprehensive of anything, and the same with PWCC's tool. You can't look at the intersection of those two datasets and start making conclusions like this about the missing links. There's often no rhyme or reason to which cards get listed as "sold", which ones get removed or flagged, when the ones that do get removed actually get removed, etc. Just go look through your own eBay purchases and try to see which ones you can find through their market research tool and PWCC's research tool. You will find missing sales. It is extremely common.

These sorts of threads are tattooed all over the place at Blowhard. Then the subsequent posts are just an avalanche of praise from people who just gobble this nonsense up. "Oh wow! Great work detective!"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying shill bidding doesn't happen on the regular with PWCC consignors, or that some of these cards weren't paid for. I'm just saying that this list isn't what you think it is. The primary conclusions from that thread are not valid. Also, just because an item wasn't paid for doesn't mean it was because of shill bidding.

Here's a prime example from my own collection. And this is for a 52 Topps Mickey Mantle no less. I bought this card on eBay from PWCC on 07/22/2021 for $45k. But it doesn't show up in eBay's market pricing tool. Yet I assure you, it was paid for and is currently in my possession.

Same with some of my other recent purchases. I bought 3 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan SGC 9 rookie cards, all on eBay from PWCC. But only 2 of the 3 show up. Why is that? Again, all were paid for and all are in my possession.

Boy, no wonder you apologize and are on Brent Mastro's Schwanz with every post. 45 K, He hammered you like a red headed step child. You must have not had a clue he was crook, criminal, lying loser...or you still did business with a known criminal anyway. Good for you. Enjoy your A** pounding Just send that one back to him and he'll have it a PSA 6, just like he probably promised you.

[MattyC]

Always nice to see a discussion degenerate into ad hominem attacks criticizing what a collector chooses to pay for a piece he wants.

[jingram058]

I'm probably committing net54 Hara Kiri here, but here goes...

Leon, are you watching this thread? I have watched this entire diatribe play out. I have stated this before on multiple occasions when I have become frustrated, but I have to ask, is this a card collecting forum or a card and memorabilia investment brokerage?

Sure, I could just go away. I have done that on occasion. But being a relative newby to these pre-war cards, and not being a multi-millionaire many times over, I just would like to talk about the cards. Have I come to the wrong place?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I'm probably committing net54 Hara Kiri here, but here goes...

Leon, are you watching this thread? I have watched this entire diatribe play out. I have stated this before on multiple occasions when I have become frustrated, but I have to ask, is this a card collecting forum or a card and memorabilia investment brokerage?

Sure, I could just go away. I have done that on occasion. But being a relative newby to these pre-war cards, and not being a multi-millionaire many times over, I just would like to talk about the cards. Have I come to the wrong place?

There is an ignore function that lets you block any poster you want so you don't have to read their posts. Way easier than complaining that will probably get you nowhere.

Now if one of the few people that don't have me blocked can quote this so everyone can read it.

[HobokenJon]

Anybody know of anyone who's bought these? Thoughts? Asking for a friend.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/capital

*****

CAPITAL NOTES
About the Note
Notes are issued throughout the year at varying interest rates.

Details
6-9% interest. Paid monthly.
12 month hold.

How to Request a Capital Note
Email qr@pwccmarketplace.com .
Include "Capital Note Request" in the subject line.
State a requested investment amount.
A lending specialist will respond.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I'm probably committing net54 Hara Kiri here, but here goes...

Leon, are you watching this thread? I have watched this entire diatribe play out. I have stated this before on multiple occasions when I have become frustrated, but I have to ask, is this a card collecting forum or a card and memorabilia investment brokerage?

Sure, I could just go away. I have done that on occasion. But being a relative newby to these pre-war cards, and not being a multi-millionaire many times over, I just would like to talk about the cards. Have I come to the wrong place?

Sportscards are an asset. People tend to talk about the details of their assets' value sometimes.

The world isn't going to cater to your preferences. Here or elsewhere. Not to mention that a large portion of the threads don't touch that topic here anyway.

If you don't like the concept, just ignore the ones that do

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I'm probably committing net54 Hara Kiri here, but here goes...

Leon, are you watching this thread? I have watched this entire diatribe play out. I have stated this before on multiple occasions when I have become frustrated, but I have to ask, is this a card collecting forum or a card and memorabilia investment brokerage?

Sure, I could just go away. I have done that on occasion. But being a relative newby to these pre-war cards, and not being a multi-millionaire many times over, I just would like to talk about the cards. Have I come to the wrong place?

No, just the wrong thread. There's plenty of what you want on the board, just don't annoy yourself by opening threads you don't want to see.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I'm probably committing net54 Hara Kiri here, but here goes...

Leon, are you watching this thread? I have watched this entire diatribe play out. I have stated this before on multiple occasions when I have become frustrated, but I have to ask, is this a card collecting forum or a card and memorabilia investment brokerage?

Sure, I could just go away. I have done that on occasion. But being a relative newby to these pre-war cards, and not being a multi-millionaire many times over, I just would like to talk about the cards. Have I come to the wrong place?

To be fair, this is a thread about a major scandal in the hobby involving PWCC, ebay, and shill bidding. I'm not sure why you would expect to see something different in this thread. There is no shortage of other great threads discussing some awesome vintage cards and collections here as well, both for high value and low value cards.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Boy, no wonder you apologize and are on Brent Mastro's Schwanz with every post. 45 K, He hammered you like a red headed step child. You must have not had a clue he was crook, criminal, lying loser...or you still did business with a known criminal anyway. Good for you. Enjoy your A** pounding Just send that one back to him and he'll have it a PSA 6, just like he probably promised you.

Snowman gives an actual example of a card he won on ebay, that shows up in one data set but not another, and brings that point into the discussion. To me, that is constructive to an honest dialogue.

Why do you feel a need to rip him for doing so?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Boy, no wonder you apologize and are on Brent Mastro's Schwanz with every post. 45 K, He hammered you like a red headed step child. You must have not had a clue he was crook, criminal, lying loser...or you still did business with a known criminal anyway. Good for you. Enjoy your A** pounding Just send that one back to him and he'll have it a PSA 6, just like he probably promised you.

Nobody took advantage of me. I wasn't shill bid on this card. I made an offer for less than what I felt the card was worth to me. The seller accepted my offer. I love the card and am more than happy with the price I paid. Feel free to berate me ale my purchasing decisions though if you dislike me. I don't mind.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Nobody took advantage of me. I wasn't shill bid on this card. I made an offer for less than what I felt the card was worth to me. The seller accepted my offer. I love the card and am more than happy with the price I paid. Feel free to berate me ale my purchasing decisions though if you dislike me. I don't mind.

Yup, super wrong in my eyes as a collector seeing someone called out like you've been for what you paid for a piece of cardboard.
It's a beautiful Mantle I hope you enjoy as long as you hold on to it, and the price you paid is for you to be comfortable with and only you.

I find your line of thinking interesting, though perhaps you're underplaying/undervaluing the effect of pump and dump.....
It's not just the 'outlier' high price paid for a shilled item that can falsely alter market value for a collectable, but the effect of todays sports forums online and on social media which pile on to the event.
When collectors discuss/post their feelings, both positive and negative, but often with a sense of excitement about that result, it fuels many buyers into that FOMO anxiety.
So without being completely sure themselves, a buyer who doesn't own a copy of a card they really desire may move out of their comfort zone purely because that FOMO suggests the opportunity may permanently disappear from their affordability or manageability.

Only takes 2 or 3 bidders each time, and the ones who are underbidders form the floor at the next auction and tend to bid to AT LEAST where they were on the losing auction, sometimes a little over.
Now further collector eyes see multiple auctions reaching a 'new' seemingly authentic bidder level and it resolves in their minds whether the original result was fairly achieved.

I understand your overall point, and that is that regardless of the above if collectors are willing to pay a new and inflated price, or fall away after a couple of auctions and the item finds once again it's previous selling point, the collectable is finding a longer term number that is considered it's value.

Fair in the way it gets there?
Probs not. But same thing happens in property and other assets, and if your pockets are deep enough it only really matters what YOU are willing to pay.
You see actors and famous people all the time selling uber expensive property they bought top of market for millions less than they paid, and I rarely feel sorry for them.
I own cards I've similarly paid up big time for, especially some modern stuff like Mahomes, and if it falls in to a pit I just accept I was the idiot willing to risk funds for a speculative piece of cardboard.

The anger pointed at your posts are unwarranted IMO, presuming you are not acting in bad faith at the behest of the bad actors.
No reason as I read it to believe that, so feel free to intellectualize as much as you like I say.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The alleged sellers realized even less than that after fees if those sales are real.
Yeah, real likely.
But defenders will defend, that's what they did then, that's what they do now.

Imagine if he gets indicted, what will they say then?

I will do business with him till he goes away and again as soon as he gets out. He is a great guy and his auctions bring the most money.