ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Yes I know. But your invoking the name of a convicted criminal and then trying to put me on the defensive with it was the first salvo.

I've stated my opinion; to restate would be redundant. And I agree with what Bob said too. If people will pay a certain price for something, then that is what the price is that people will pay.

OK I think we've had a good discussion, but if you want to have the last word, my final point would be your reasoning is circular or maybe just tautological.

[FrankWakefield]

Maybe take all of this who can argue best, misuse of logic, and Maestro stuff to a new thread... Argument Digression might be an apt name.

Please... back to PWCC. THAT is some news. I've bought a few cards from them (maybe I should say got tricked into overpaying for a few cards). Getting this out there was good for the board and everyone, thank you Peter. To a slight extent I'd usually be conservative in my bidding with them because of that crap where they were "protecting" us bidders by not disclosing identifying info (I can't recall how that eBay label read...). I thought that was a bit of BS that invited or masked shilling, and that was before the "Vault" crap. Only two steps remaining for PWCC was their own auction house and their in house grading company. Golly, a fella could buy a card and pay them a commission, then get it graded and pay for that, then 'Vault' the card and pay for that. What a deal!!!

[kailes2872]

Peter,
I ask this as an honest question - no snarkiness, I promise, just curious...

You have an awesome PSA 6 53 Bowman Ford for sale on the BST page. You have had several very nice examples of cards over the years that tend to be at the top of their grade. Your 54 Bowman Williams comes to mind. I don't tend to buy fixed priced items because I am convinced that I am usually the fool overpaying. Therefore, I buy through auctions. In some cases, I end up paying more for the auction item (versus the fixed priced item) - or pay a tad less for a copy that is not as nice. Hopefully I am not shilled, but more than likely, I have been victim over time.

But I digress...

When you determine prices for your items, do you pull out PWCC comps? Do you have a general formula? Again, no offense meant. It just seems that it would be impossible to price an item without taking the PWCC prices into consideration and not have it immediately purchased and be considered a bargain for the purchaser.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

Peter,
I ask this as an honest question - no snarkiness, I promise, just curious...

You have an awesome PSA 6 53 Bowman Ford for sale on the BST page. You have had several very nice examples of cards over the years that tend to be at the top of their grade. Your 54 Bowman Williams comes to mind. I don't tend to buy fixed priced items because I am convinced that I am usually the fool overpaying. Therefore, I buy through auctions. In some cases, I end up paying more for the auction item (versus the fixed priced item) - or pay a tad less for a copy that is not as nice. Hopefully I am not shilled, but more than likely, I have been victim over time.

But I digress...

When you determine prices for your items, do you pull out PWCC comps? Do you have a general formula? Again, no offense meant. It just seems that it would be impossible to price an item without taking the PWCC prices into consideration and not have it immediately purchased and be considered a bargain for the purchaser.

No set formula. Case by case and some is by feel, but if I didn't have a good feel I would typically look at past sales to get an idea, if PWCC prices were obvious outliers I would not give them any weight. Sometimes though I go more by my general perception of how much the market for a certain type of card has gone up or down since I bought it rather than relying on direct comps.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No set formula. Case by case and some is by feel, but if I didn't have a good feel I would typically look at past sales to get an idea, if PWCC prices were obvious outliers I would not give them any weight. Sometimes though I go more by my general perception of how much the market for a certain type of card has gone up or down since I bought it rather than relying on direct comps.

Thanks - makes sense and I appreciate the response.

[Bobbycee]

AUCTION INTEGRITY & OVERSIGHT
Safeguarding the integrity of bidding on our auctions is our highest priority, as is the assurance that every item we broker is accurately described and authentic. For the trading card marketplace to function effectively, honesty and integrity must be ensured. Collectors deserve a bidding environment that is 100% legitimate and free from intervention by the auction house, submitters, friends of submitters, friends of the auction house, or anyone else who seeks to exert artificial influence over the sale price[/B].

From their own website!
They have so souls...

[FrankWakefield]

Their hypocrisy knows no bounds

[Johnny630]

They’re in high speed damage control mode.

I wonder who is or will be sending them cards for their auction site ??

[Peter_Spaeth]

I sometimes wonder if he isn't delusional to an extent.

[Casey2296]

I had a conversation with Al Crisafulli a couple of years ago, we talked cards, family, market, etc. just a random phone call from me during the day which he answered personally and took the time to talk. During that conversation he explained to me his limitations as a collector while also being an AH and the boundaries he couldn't cross, my takeaway? This is a man who has morals, integrity, and trust. Based on that conversation I would not only trust him with my money, consignments, etc. but I would also invite him into my home.

He also said I should be committed to an asylum for trying to build an E98 master set, I didn't disagree...

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No set formula. Case by case and some is by feel, but if I didn't have a good feel I would typically look at past sales to get an idea, if PWCC prices were obvious outliers I would not give them any weight. Sometimes though I go more by my general perception of how much the market for a certain type of card has gone up or down since I bought it rather than relying on direct comps.

There may not be a better way to do it. Who knows what went on at times, and I don't doubt that there are highly questionable "sales" of higher-end items (especially with examples like the Floyd Mayweather card that Exhibitman showed earlier).

But I'll share the one auction lot I won from them this year. Final price was at the very low end for centered PSA 9s, and it's obvious from the bid history that there was no shill bidding.

So either my auction was a rare outlier (and there is some huge boiler room concept happening where endless people frantically kept track of everything and ensure that artificially high prices are always being created), or mine is similar to countless other nice (but modest) auction items that were ok, and the focus of any shenanigans was usually on a larger scale.

I would guess the latter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353540601951

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

There may not be a better way to do it. Who knows what went on at times, and I don't doubt that there are highly questionable "sales" of higher-end items (especially with examples like the Floyd Mayweather card that Exhibitman showed earlier).

But I'll share the one auction lot I won from them this year. Final price was at the very low end for centered PSA 9s, and it's obvious from the bid history that there was no shill bidding.

So either my auction was a rare outlier (and there is some huge boiler room concept happening where endless people frantically kept track of everything and ensure that artificially high prices are always being created), or mine is similar to countless other nice (but modest) auction items that were ok, and the focus of any shenanigans was usually on a larger scale.

I would guess the latter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353540601951

A lot of their stuff is fine. Lots of honest collectors consign to them and even some honest dealers. It's the dishonest dealer and card doctor consignments where all the BS is.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A lot of their stuff is fine. Lots of honest collectors consign to them and even some honest dealers. It's the dishonest dealer and card doctor consignments where all the BS is.

Exactly. But from the sound of this thread, you'd think it was much more widespread than that w/ their auctions

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Exactly. But from the sound of this thread, you'd think it was much more widespread than that w/ their auctions

Multiplied by their thousands and thousands of listings, it adds up.