ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[mckinneyj]

Originally Posted by toppcat

What's in the message header data? That should indicate where the message was sent from.

True.

Most (all?) email client readers have a means for inspecting the SMTP email headers. For example, with Microsoft's Outlook mail reader if one opens the message and then chooses "Properties" from the "File" pulldown menu you'll have the opportunity to view the "Internet headers". If someone can do so, or similar using some other email client reader, and cut and paste those headers here someone can decipher the path the message took and where the origin was...

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by mckinneyj

True.

Most (all?) email client readers have a means for inspecting the SMTP email headers. For example, with Microsoft's Outlook mail reader if one opens the message and then chooses "Properties" from the "File" pulldown menu you'll have the opportunity to view the "Internet headers". If someone can do so, or similar using some other email client reader, and cut and paste those headers here someone can decipher the path the message took and where the origin was...

Deleted post since I'm not sure how those email headers work.

[esquiresports]

PWCC listings are being removed in chronological order - from newest to oldest listing. Anyone can run this check and see. Click on any new listing and it will show up as "no longer available." Refresh and the last 100 or so listings will disappear. This is definitely happening. Cannot speak to authenticity of underlying email.

https://www.ebay.com/str/pwccvault?m...&_sop=10&rt=nc

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by esquiresports

PWCC listings are being removed in chronological order - from newest to oldest listing. Anyone can run this check and see. Click on any new listing and it will show up as "no longer available." Refresh and the last 100 or so listings will disappear. This is definitely happening. Cannot speak to authenticity of underlying email.

https://www.ebay.com/str/pwccvault?m...&_sop=10&rt=nc

Yup. It drops with every refresh.

I guess if you're gonn a buy something from the vault, you'd best do so quickly before it disappears.

[mckinneyj]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Deleted post since I'm not sure how those email headers work.

SMTP mail grew up as a store-and-forward technology. A message can be handed from one system to another to another prior to reaching its destination. Back in the day the internet was much less reliable and so there needed to be a mechanism for delivering mail when a system was "down". A mail server may have other systems set up as proxies for it to receive mail should it be unavailable to accept it. Nowadays there can be numerous other reasons beyond system outages why one might want to push mail to some other system to be "stored" prior to it being forwarded on its way. Anyway, each system that handles a message signs it by leaving a record in the message's headers. So...

the headers originally posted include the following "interesting" received headers that show the path the message took from sender to mailbox:


Hop #1 - Received: from r145.reply5.ebay.com (r145.reply5.ebay.com [172.82.216.145])
Origin: Received: from [34.217.185.60] ([34.217.185.60:54049] helo=r140.reply5.ebay.com)

The system with address 34.217.185.60 belongs to Amazon's AWS cloud and has been assigned the name ec2-34-217-185-60.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com.

So it would seem that either ebay is using AWS and relaying through its own server or is horribly misconfigured and permitting others to use its system as an open email relay. I'll guess that ebay is actually using AWS and that this message really did originate with ebay on that AWS system. fwiw...

[LACardsGuy]

What is truly amazing to me (and please ignore if someone already pointed this out) is that a search for PWCC shows TONS of sellers using "PWCC-E" and the like in their titles. I can't believe they are getting away with that.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by LACardsGuy

What is truly amazing to me (and please ignore if someone already pointed this out) is that a search for PWCC shows TONS of sellers using "PWCC-E" and the like in their titles. I can't believe they are getting away with that.

If the slabs have the PWCC-E sticker on the back, then that's pretty standard practice. Same with the MBA gold stickers. People usually mention those in the title. If they don't have the sticker though, then ya, that's false advertising obviously.

[LACardsGuy]

I think I mis-understood what they were doing. If it's just that they bought cards with those stickers, no big thing. I thought they were using PWCC in title as click bait.

Originally Posted by Snowman

If the slabs have the PWCC-E sticker on the back, then that's pretty standard practice. Same with the MBA gold stickers. People usually mention those in the title. If they don't have the sticker though, then ya, that's false advertising obviously.

[Johnny630]

In that video the Pwcc guy said we get 5-10% higher sales because of scans, packing, and shipping methods.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

In that video the Pwcc guy said we get 5-10% higher sales because of scans, packing, and shipping methods.

Uh huh....yea right.....I am a small time seller and I do all three of those equally, if not better than, PWCC.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

In that video the Pwcc guy said we get 5-10% higher sales because of scans, packing, and shipping methods.

There are many reasons why a company like PWCC would produce higher sales prices than other sellers. This stuff isn't rocket science.

I would probably rank order the reasons for higher sale prices as follows, with #1, without question, being the primary factor that would explain the majority of the differences we see in sales prices vs the rest of the market.

1. #1 - The number of followers that they had far exceeds that of nearly every other eBay seller in this market. The more eyes you have on your auctions, the more they will sell for. This should be obvious to everyone.

1. #2 - They have better images of their cards than every single other seller, full stop. Nobody else offers high-definition scans that allow you to zoom in on a card at 20x magnification enabling you to see the individual paper fibers on a card. You can see exactly what you're bidding on. With so many other sellers, you often can't see a card's flaws. Blurry images, low-def scans, front-only scans, etc. It allows them to sell a card at it's maximum value because they eliminate so much of the guesswork. It's about as close as you can get to holding a card in your hands when purchasing online. Most other sellers will get less for their items simply because there is more uncertainty in the card's condition, even if it's slabbed.

1. #3 - They offer multiple creative ways to pay for items. Not just PayPal or Credit Card. I've paid for high-dollar cards with them using personal checks and even Bitcoin. They even accept trade value if you have cards sitting in your vault with them. They also offer loans that leverage cards in your vault as collateral. These might seem like small benefits to some people, but it is a huge perk for many buyers in the high-end market.

1. #4 - Their auctions are always well organized. All the 1950s Topps card listings end around the same time. Same with vintage Hockey, or 1980s basketball. So if you're interested in a particular segment of the market, you see not only the cards you're looking for, but you also get exposure to numerous other listings that you might not have even otherwise thought to look for if you are watching their auctions. Again, this leads to more eyes on their listings, and more eyes equal more money.

1. #5 - Shill bidding. Certainly, some of their consignors shill bid in their auctions. This is true for all sellers on eBay though. We can argue about how much of an effect this has and how widespread it is, but it likely has a small but measurable effect. Every consignment company is subject to these same issues, as is every dishonest individual seller on eBay who shills their own auctions. And even random listings get shill bid on by people who have copies of that same card who are just trying to bump its value. This is an eBay problem to solve though, not the consignment companies'.

[prestigecollectibles]

Just saw this on Twitter

[samosa4u]

PWCC needs to do the following:

a) When the Vault Marketplace opens up next month, try to make sure that prices closely reflect today's market. In other words, stop listing them at '2020 prices,' cause' that just isn't going to work now.

b) I will NOT pay a hundred US shipping for a hundred-dollar card! Seriously, WTF! And I'm not paying three-hundred US shipping for a thousand dollar card. They're obviously making profit from shipping and this needs to stop. I've bought all sorts of stuff from Americans over the past twenty years and I know just exactly how much it costs.

c) Limit the amount of times someone can bid on a single auction. Anyone bidding ten or fifteen times on the same item should be given the boot. I don't care if the bids are legit and this guy has a hundred-grand in his bank account - no more games.

d) Stop doing business with known card doctors. I don't know what kind of relationship Moser has or had with Brent, but PWCC needs to distance themselves from guys like him.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

PWCC needs to do the following:

c) Limit the amount of times someone can bid on a single auction. Anyone bidding ten or fifteen times on the same item should be given the boot. I don't care if the bids are legit and this guy has a hundred-grand in his bank account - no more games.

Am I reading you correctly and you actually think legit bidders should be booted for bidding so many times in an auction?!?!? So let me get this straight, if there are two bidders going back and forth on an auction and one of them finally makes say their 10th bid, you are for them not being able to bid anymore? And if the other person can still make one more bid they'll win the item by default because the 1st bidder is stopped from bidding again, the consignor gets less than the item would/should have sold for, and the AH loses out on getting more commission.........do I have that all right? I just want to make sure I didn't misread what you just wrote.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by BobC

Am I reading you correctly and you actually think legit bidders should be booted for bidding so many times in an auction?!?!? So let me get this straight, if there are two bidders going back and forth on an auction and one of them finally makes say their 10th bid, you are for them not being able to bid anymore? And if the other person can still make one more bid they'll win the item by default because the 1st bidder is stopped from bidding again, the consignor gets less than the item would/should have sold for, and the AH loses out on getting more commission.........do I have that all right? I just want to make sure I didn't misread what you just wrote.

Bob,

Yes, you read right.

We're all grown men here - not schoolchildren. Why do we need to bid ten times or more?

Hmmm, let's see ... 350 ... 400 ... hehehe ... 425 ... 450 ... oh dear ... 475 ... 499 ... 501 ... hohoho ...

A person bidding like that is either a) not serious about the item or b) shilling it up! Limiting the number of times an individual can bid on a particular item is a great idea and all the major auction houses should consider it!