Former PSA employee AMA on reddit

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Its noteworthy that the guy states that every card is reviewed by at least two graders (maybe more if "contentious"). So that means that two graders authenticated this 1914 CJ reprint, the T206 EPDG Cy Young Reprint that was discussed here a few months back (dont have pic), and so many altered cards that BODA finds?

The graders are human. They make mistakes. For every one of these that slips through the cracks, they probably correctly reject 5,000+, but you never see the rejections, you only see the ones that slip through the cracks.

As far as BODA's "altered" cards goes... some of their posts are just getting ridiculous now. It's starting to become like the boy who cried wolf over there. I've lost count of how many cards they post where they say something along the lines of "I couldn't prove any alterations on this one, but posting anyhow for reference" or "I haven't identified the alteration on this, but I suspect there is one because 'a***a' submitted it". Meanwhile, there are 20,000+ "a***a" buyers on eBay, not to mention eBay assigns the same account DIFFERENT hidden ID's on every transaction lol. If you look at cards I've bought, my hidden ID tag is different on all of them. It's no wonder the FBI shrugged their shoulders after being presented with the evidence. Don't get me wrong, they've also found a ton of truly altered cards too, but the vast majority of those almost certainly couldn't be detected without a before (AND AFTER) scan of the same card side by side. Not to mention the hobby can't even agree on what counts as an "alteration" to begin with. And even if they could, that still wouldn't make it a crime to clean a card just because a group of ultra-purist collectors disapprove of it. These guys can sit there and dig up a million of these cards and it wouldn't change a thing. If anything, they're drawing MORE attention to what can be done to a card and what can't be detected. I would wager good money that the aftermath of BODA's efforts will actually result in MORE altered cards being graded than before. The FBI clearly doesn't care and neither does the hobby. If you think the next time that Honus Wagner PSA 8 trades hands that it's going to go for anything other than a new record because everyone knows it's trimmed, you're only kidding yourself. And the 1952 Mantle that started the whole BODA "investigation" thread? I'd take that card any day and would be more than happy to pay top dollar for it.

[Johnny630]

The FBI clearly doesn't care and neither does the hobby. If you think the next time that Honus Wagner PSA 8 trades hands that it's going to go for anything other than a new record because everyone knows it's trimmed, you're only kidding yourself. And the 1952 Mantle that started the whole BODA "investigation" thread? I'd take that card any day and would be more than happy to pay top dollar for it.

Quote from Snowmam Above.

Sadly I think this is where we are at in this hobby right now. People just don’t care anymore they’re numb to it.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

The FBI clearly doesn't care and neither does the hobby. If you think the next time that Honus Wagner PSA 8 trades hands that it's going to go for anything other than a new record because everyone knows it's trimmed, you're only kidding yourself. And the 1952 Mantle that started the whole BODA "investigation" thread? I'd take that card any day and would be more than happy to pay top dollar for it.

Quote from Snowmam Above.

Sadly I think this is where we are at in this hobby right now. People just don’t care anymore they’re numb to it.

I'm not numb to it. PSA will have to bend over backwards to regain my trust.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I'm not numb to it. PSA will have to bend over backwards to regain my trust.

I totally understand with your situation Bobby and I feel terrible for you I hope they make it up to you and your customers. I was just referencing people don’t seem to care about the cards being altered seems like they take the more approach it in a holder that’s all that matters to me. That’s fine for people I guess with a lot of money they don’t care but I like to have a card with good history, clean, original/natural history.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I totally understand with your situation Bobby and I feel terrible for you I hope they make it up to you and your customers. I was just referencing people don’t seem to care about the cards being altered seems like they take the more approach it in a holder that’s all that matters to me. That’s fine for people I guess with a lot of money they don’t care but I like to have a card with good history, clean, original/natural history.

99% of the people in the hobby have never heard of Blow Out Cards or BODA so they don't have a clue about the trimming scandal and they are not aware of that the card they are purchasing has been trimmed.

[samosa4u]

What BODA has done is just awesome. I have nothing but respect for those guys. However, Mr. Snowman does have some solid points.

Originally Posted by Snowman

I've lost count of how many cards they post where they say something along the lines of "I couldn't prove any alterations on this one, but posting anyhow for reference" or "I haven't identified the alteration on this, but I suspect there is one because 'a***a' submitted it".

Yeah, that's a bit silly. Imagine having your ten-thousand dollar card posted up there, and yet they're not sure what was done on it. Now lots of people don't want to touch it ... gee thanks, guys.

Originally Posted by Snowman

Not to mention the hobby can't even agree on what counts as an "alteration" to begin with.

Another solid point. This has been discussed so many times on here and we all know how those threads went.

Originally Posted by Snowman

If anything, they're drawing MORE attention to what can be done to a card and what can't be detected. I would wager good money that the aftermath of BODA's efforts will actually result in MORE altered cards being graded than before.

This is actually very scary and it's probably true. Imagine writing a book titled "How to get Altered Cards past Graders" and putting it online for free! BODA points out every little detail here and there, and this is just the perfect way to educate others on how to commit fraud.

[swarmee]

Snowman's POV reminds me of a guy who was just banned from Blowout for being a previously banned member.

But if the guy is a guaranteed trimmer, and he SOLD the card in the PSA holder first (mentioned in the post) as part of one of his PSA submissions, and it's a low POP PSA 10 vintage card, I think that is valuable knowledge. What do you guys think are the odds that raw card from gregmorris is now a PSA 10 that wasn't altered?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Snowman's POV reminds me of a guy who was just banned from Blowout for being a previously banned member.

But if the guy is a guaranteed trimmer, and he SOLD the card in the PSA holder first (mentioned in the post) as part of one of his PSA submissions, and it's a low POP PSA 10 vintage card, I think that is valuable knowledge. What do you guys think are the odds that raw card from gregmorris is now a PSA 10 that wasn't altered?

Should we be insulted he only turned to 54 after being banned twice on Blowout? I do hope he doesn't already have an alt -- see post on same subject by another new member just above.

In any case look forward to his insights on AI. Very timely topic.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Snowman's POV reminds me of a guy who was just banned from Blowout for being a previously banned member.

But if the guy is a guaranteed trimmer, and he SOLD the card in the PSA holder first (mentioned in the post) as part of one of his PSA submissions, and it's a low POP PSA 10 vintage card, I think that is valuable knowledge. What do you guys think are the odds that raw card from gregmorris is now a PSA 10 that wasn't altered?

Yes, I was banned on Blowout forums. My name there was JR42Collector. I was banned there for sending a strongly worded PM to one of the admins. It was a mistake. I won't be doing any of that here.

[steve B]

Referring to a comment about suspecting something based on the source..

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Yeah, that's a bit silly. Imagine having your ten-thousand dollar card posted up there, and yet they're not sure what was done on it. Now lots of people don't want to touch it ... gee thanks, guys.

NO, it's just sensible. If great granddad bought rare stamps from Spiro brothers or Fournier or Sperati.... Yeah, there's an excellent chance most of them are fake.
Or US covers from John Fox, who also sold real ones.

If a card was submitted by a prolific trimmer/recolorer? Again, odds are it's fake.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

If a card was submitted by a prolific trimmer/recolorer? Again, odds are it's fake.

By "fake", I take it you mean "altered"? Because I haven't seen any of these cards submitted by prolific trimmers/Van Goghs being called out as counterfeits by BODA. Also, I'm sure they submit plenty of cards that don't "need" altering. Just because they trimmed card A doesn't mean they also trimmed cards B through Z, particularly when BODA has scans of all those cards and "can't find any evidence of alterations" but posts it anyhow just because of semi-adjacent serial numbers. Also worth noting is that the trimmers are probably trying to sneak in their trimmed cards, surrounding them with non-altered cards in hopes that the trimmed one goes through undetected. I doubt there are very many of them who are truly just cutting up 100 cards and putting all 100 into one submission. That would be such a red flag and would greatly increase the probability of their entire order getting rejected and the submitter being banned. I would bet that the majority of cards submitted even by the Van Goghs and the cutters probably haven't been altered.

I get why they push the narrative though. These guys are spending countless hours every day trying to hunt down these "criminals", yet bearing no fruit despite devoting years of their lives to this. Meanwhile, the FBI (actual detectives) clearly couldn't care less about it. It must be extremely deflating. So they feel like they need to post something for their efforts. Can't allow an honest good day's work to go to waste, so here's a non-altered card for you! Who knows, it might be altered and we just can't tell lol. They're grasping at straws. It's not a good look. They're crying wolf.

Also, their method of tying sales to particular individuals is flawed. Saying they know a card was purchased by Moser because the buyer ID is 'm***1' (or whatever it is) somehow proves it is beyond laughable. There are countless 'm***1' usernames buying cards on eBay; literally thousands of them. Not to mention the fact that the username 'garymoser123' would have 132 different permutations that eBay uses at random for their purchases (12 Permute 2 = 132). They purchase a card and it shows as 'm***1' today, but it's 'g***e' tomorrow and '2***y' the next day. Don't believe me? Go to eBay, log out, and then look up your own eBay purchases and see what it lists you as. You'll have a different masked buyer ID for each one.

My favorite posts in those threads are the ones where BODA posts pics of a card that is accompanied by the "I couldn't detect alterations on this card, but the serial number is only 37 away from this other one that was trimmed, so something has probably been done to it. Here it is. I'm posting it for reference." Then the next 5 pages of comments are just pure gold.

• "You can see the top edge was trimmed! Just look at it!"

• "Oh wow, ya, they MURDERED that left edge! See that?"

• "Look at the right edge, I think they took a dental tool to the right edge!"

• "That bottom edge looks off. Something isn't right with that. I think they sanded it."

• "Look at the bottom right corner, that's a rebuilt corner. I know one when I see one!"

• "No, it's the top right corner. See the angle on it? They cut the entire corner off and gave it a new corner, then trimmed it and shaved it down!"

• "Look at the red background, that's supposed to be orange. They definitely recolored this card!"

• "Something looks off with the font. I think they recolored the name too."

It's absolutely hilarious. These guys have no clue what they're looking at. Every aspect of every card now looks altered/fake to the entire army of BODA's fanboys. But hand them a stack of raw cards, all of which were rejected by PSA or SGC because of alterations, and they think they're holding pure gold because, hey, "not slabbed = not altered" lol. Some of this stuff is pure comedy gold.

[steve B]

My comments in red.

Originally Posted by Snowman

By "fake", I take it you mean "altered"? Because I haven't seen any of these cards submitted by prolific trimmers/Van Goghs being called out as counterfeits by BODA.
Fair enough, I should have said altered. Although in my other hobbies an original item combined with a fake element is considered fake.

Also, I'm sure they submit plenty of cards that don't "need" altering. Just because they trimmed card A doesn't mean they also trimmed cards B through Z, particularly when BODA has scans of all those cards and "can't find any evidence of alterations" but posts it anyhow just because of semi-adjacent serial numbers. Also worth noting is that the trimmers are probably trying to sneak in their trimmed cards, surrounding them with non-altered cards in hopes that the trimmed one goes through undetected. I doubt there are very many of them who are truly just cutting up 100 cards and putting all 100 into one submission. That would be such a red flag and would greatly increase the probability of their entire order getting rejected and the submitter being banned. I would bet that the majority of cards submitted even by the Van Goghs and the cutters probably haven't been altered.

If I had any way of proving it, I'd take that bet. While it's a practice of some alterers in other fields, many also exclusively alter or produce outright fakes with no real/unaltered items. Some were good enough to fool experts for years.
While the PSA subs aren't accessible as the old SGC ones were, if you see a block of numbers that are for example all pokemon, followed by a block of numbers that are all sportscards and mostly vintage, then the next block is all modern cards it's fairly certain that those blocks are individual submissions. Some of the ones identified had about a 10% rejection rate, and also had many cards that were clearly altered based on the before and after scans collected. The paper fibers are as good as a finger print, possibly better as they're easier to interpret.

I get why they push the narrative though. These guys are spending countless hours every day trying to hunt down these "criminals", yet bearing no fruit despite devoting years of their lives to this. Meanwhile, the FBI (actual detectives) clearly couldn't care less about it. It must be extremely deflating. So they feel like they need to post something for their efforts. Can't allow an honest good day's work to go to waste, so here's a non-altered card for you! Who knows, it might be altered and we just can't tell lol. They're grasping at straws. It's not a good look. They're crying wolf.

Some of the more recent ones have seemed like very weak IDs to me. Many of the older ones were very certain. I can't say what motivates someone to spend so much time on finding those things, but it's probably similar to a "census" some people do of other less than common collectibles. I've spent a bunch of time on my own hobby projects, odd varieties, a spreadsheet of 48 Leaf images showing the different versions etc. And an image archive of items in one of my particular specialties. So I won't make fun of them for their efforts.

Also, their method of tying sales to particular individuals is flawed. Saying they know a card was purchased by Moser because the buyer ID is 'm***1' (or whatever it is) somehow proves it is beyond laughable. There are countless 'm***1' usernames buying cards on eBay; literally thousands of them. Not to mention the fact that the username 'garymoser123' would have 132 different permutations that eBay uses at random for their purchases (12 Permute 2 = 132). They purchase a card and it shows as 'm***1' today, but it's 'g***e' tomorrow and '2***y' the next day. Don't believe me? Go to eBay, log out, and then look up your own eBay purchases and see what it lists you as. You'll have a different masked buyer ID for each one.

I wasn't aware of that. I haven't bought from Ebay for a couple years, so I don't really have anything to check with. I wonder if it's different for each purchase, or only each session?

My favorite posts in those threads are the ones where BODA posts pics of a card that is accompanied by the "I couldn't detect alterations on this card, but the serial number is only 37 away from this other one that was trimmed, so something has probably been done to it. Here it is. I'm posting it for reference." Then the next 5 pages of comments are just pure gold.

• "You can see the top edge was trimmed! Just look at it!"

• "Oh wow, ya, they MURDERED that left edge! See that?"

• "Look at the right edge, I think they took a dental tool to the right edge!"

• "That bottom edge looks off. Something isn't right with that. I think they sanded it."

• "Look at the bottom right corner, that's a rebuilt corner. I know one when I see one!"

• "No, it's the top right corner. See the angle on it? They cut the entire corner off and gave it a new corner, then trimmed it and shaved it down!"

• "Look at the red background, that's supposed to be orange. They definitely recolored this card!"

• "Something looks off with the font. I think they recolored the name too."

It's absolutely hilarious. These guys have no clue what they're looking at. Every aspect of every card now looks altered/fake to the entire army of BODA's fanboys. But hand them a stack of raw cards, all of which were rejected by PSA or SGC because of alterations, and they think they're holding pure gold because, hey, "not slabbed = not altered" lol. Some of this stuff is pure comedy gold.

We see the same thing here. But I'd have to give the nod to the track record of some members, both here and on BO, which I don't follow much.

I still maintain that for some people PSA gets it wrong nearly every time. And their overall record is well beyond the realm of simple mistakes. I fix and make stuff for work, and the mistakes I make each year are very few. Probably under 5 a year, and the ones that get by me to the customer is maybe one every 2-3 years. I'm not just talking about a grader missing a problem and getting a grade wrong, but missing alterations etc which is exactly what their service is advertised as catching.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The graders are human. They make mistakes. For every one of these that slips through the cracks, they probably correctly reject 5,000+, but you never see the rejections, you only see the ones that slip through the cracks.

As far as BODA's "altered" cards goes... some of their posts are just getting ridiculous now. It's starting to become like the boy who cried wolf over there. I've lost count of how many cards they post where they say something along the lines of "I couldn't prove any alterations on this one, but posting anyhow for reference" or "I haven't identified the alteration on this, but I suspect there is one because 'a***a' submitted it". Meanwhile, there are 20,000+ "a***a" buyers on eBay, not to mention eBay assigns the same account DIFFERENT hidden ID's on every transaction lol. If you look at cards I've bought, my hidden ID tag is different on all of them. It's no wonder the FBI shrugged their shoulders after being presented with the evidence. Don't get me wrong, they've also found a ton of truly altered cards too, but the vast majority of those almost certainly couldn't be detected without a before (AND AFTER) scan of the same card side by side. Not to mention the hobby can't even agree on what counts as an "alteration" to begin with. And even if they could, that still wouldn't make it a crime to clean a card just because a group of ultra-purist collectors disapprove of it. These guys can sit there and dig up a million of these cards and it wouldn't change a thing. If anything, they're drawing MORE attention to what can be done to a card and what can't be detected. I would wager good money that the aftermath of BODA's efforts will actually result in MORE altered cards being graded than before. The FBI clearly doesn't care and neither does the hobby. If you think the next time that Honus Wagner PSA 8 trades hands that it's going to go for anything other than a new record because everyone knows it's trimmed, you're only kidding yourself. And the 1952 Mantle that started the whole BODA "investigation" thread? I'd take that card any day and would be more than happy to pay top dollar for it.

This isn't the PSA board, no need to be such an apologist.

The volume of "mistakes" they make is way beyond what's acceptable in any other job.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

This isn't the PSA board, no need to be such an apologist.

The volume of "mistakes" they make is way beyond what's acceptable in any other job.

I'm not an apologist. I hate PSA. I'm just a realist. The "volume of mistakes" they make is only one number. You can't make a judgement without also having a denominator. Even 1 million mistakes would be pretty damn good if they graded a trillion cards.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The graders are human. They make mistakes. For every one of these that slips through the cracks, they probably correctly reject 5,000+, but you never see the rejections, you only see the ones that slip through the cracks.



As far as BODA's "altered" cards goes... some of their posts are just getting ridiculous now. It's starting to become like the boy who cried wolf over there. I've lost count of how many cards they post where they say something along the lines of "I couldn't prove any alterations on this one, but posting anyhow for reference" or "I haven't identified the alteration on this, but I suspect there is one because 'a***a' submitted it". Meanwhile, there are 20,000+ "a***a" buyers on eBay, not to mention eBay assigns the same account DIFFERENT hidden ID's on every transaction lol. If you look at cards I've bought, my hidden ID tag is different on all of them. It's no wonder the FBI shrugged their shoulders after being presented with the evidence. Don't get me wrong, they've also found a ton of truly altered cards too, but the vast majority of those almost certainly couldn't be detected without a before (AND AFTER) scan of the same card side by side. Not to mention the hobby can't even agree on what counts as an "alteration" to begin with. And even if they could, that still wouldn't make it a crime to clean a card just because a group of ultra-purist collectors disapprove of it. These guys can sit there and dig up a million of these cards and it wouldn't change a thing. If anything, they're drawing MORE attention to what can be done to a card and what can't be detected. I would wager good money that the aftermath of BODA's efforts will actually result in MORE altered cards being graded than before. The FBI clearly doesn't care and neither does the hobby. If you think the next time that Honus Wagner PSA 8 trades hands that it's going to go for anything other than a new record because everyone knows it's trimmed, you're only kidding yourself. And the 1952 Mantle that started the whole BODA "investigation" thread? I'd take that card any day and would be more than happy to pay top dollar for it.

Good for you. Enjoy your altered art projects. I prefer factory creations, not a Moser special.

And we now have some reference out there that can help collectors who don't want altered crap.

So BODA does plenty of good.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

[profholt82]

The beauty of capitalism is that we have the freedom to choose from an array of different grading companies to review and encapsulate our cards in plastic. PSA isn't the only player in town, fellas. And as much as some seem to enjoy complaining about their service in numerous threads and across the internet in general, using a competitor of theirs works just as well, and you may actually end up preferring it.